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Goth_Queen
03-28-2009, 11:28 PM
To me, the thought is absurd!! Demons were Gods of their own accord and existed way before the Christian religion started. Whether you believe it is just reversed or not, post your thoughts about the subject? I'm still kind of new here and I want to get to know the members more :)

Harlock
03-28-2009, 11:40 PM
Demons are not gods, gods are beings with infinite power over a certain aspect of the system, demons are not they may be attributed to certain things but are not gods of that, demons are fallen angels from heaven, ask one and maybe itll tell you the truth. fallen angels fell during one of the rebellions. and most satanists dont nessacarily worship satan but use him as a "example" christianity is based on the teachings of christ, but has been diluted and changed over time. christianity and satanism is very different

Lady Dunsany
03-28-2009, 11:47 PM
I do not believe in God nor in Satan so to me it is futile in it's enormity. When you think about it everything is reversed.

Goth_Queen
03-28-2009, 11:52 PM
Demons can have different definitions amongst different people. Thye more modernized definition of a demon is a lesser spirit or god, or a devil in Christian mythology, as you have described. But the Latin and Greek word "Demon" means divine intelligence repleted with wisdom. Divine coming from divus which means God, Hence demons are their own Gods. But opinions differ, this is my first post and open for discussion. Thank you for your take on the subject.

OneArt
03-29-2009, 12:11 AM
Demons can have different definitions amongst different people. Thye more modernized definition of a demon is a lesser spirit or god, or a devil in Christian mythology, as you have described. But the Latin and Greek word "Demon" means divine intelligence repleted with wisdom. Divine coming from divus which means God, Hence demons are their own Gods. But opinions differ, this is my first post and open for discussion. Thank you for your take on the subject.

Actually the word you're looking for is "daimon" not demon.

Humans create their own gods. So if you want Satanism to be reversed Christianity, it will be. Though to be fair reversed Judaism makes more sense. Satan was originally an Old Testament fella.

redhand
03-29-2009, 12:26 AM
Can the Devil be a bringer of good luck? Yes, indeed, according to old European traditions. This devil -- known variously as Old Nick, Old Scratch, Old Split-Foot, and Der Teufel -- did not begin his career as the "Satan" (adversary) of Christianity and Judaism or the "Prince of Darkness" and "fallen angel" popularized by John Milton in his epic poem "Paradise Lost" (1667 - 1674).

This old Devil was a spirit of untamed nature who loved music and in many ways resembled the half-human Greek god Pan. Like the West African deities Ellegua and Legba, he could be met with at a crossroads , where he would make pacts -- but unlike these deities, he was described in folktales an unpredictable ally, and a rather dim-witted foe who was easily and humourously outwitted. Coincidentally, he also resembled the Guatemalan crossroads deity Maximon, known as San Simon, for he took a special interest in the affairs of drunkards and gamblers.

The word "Devil" itself means "Little God"!LOL

Darknight
03-30-2009, 03:17 AM
I do not believe in God nor in Satan so to me it is futile in it's enormity. When you think about it everything is reversed.

If I may ask a vexing question. If you do not believe in god or Satan then what is being said here that demons are not as what people made them out to be. But like anything energy. I think we all know spirits are made up of energy both negative and positive. If one does not believe in god or Satan then what is the purpose in believing angels and demons? There pretty much from the same category only a lower rank of sorts compared to that of a deity.

Lady Dunsany
03-30-2009, 09:17 AM
I do not believe in the Christian God or Satan that is depicted in the bible. I do believe in a divine higher power that is the force in the Universe that we as a collective whole created. Satan to me is a name that was made up to keep the masses in line. Demons I believe just the lower part of us that we have created. Angels to me were always here, and some where some how they made themselves known throughout the thoughts of humans. The Angels to me are not under a deity they are here on their own, as I said in our collective consciousness we created them as all were created. This may sound arrogant but it is not meant to be. It is just my beliefs, I can not speak for anyone else.

Great American Desert
03-30-2009, 05:53 PM
Goth Queen, I too use the simple spelling of "Demon" to refer to any extra-human, but sub-divine spirit. No reason to pick at nits here; the spelling that denotes evil spirits among the Abrahamics is a result of a perspective on the very same concept referenced by the Greco/Latin spellings of the word. Given that Abrahamic believers have rendered all other gods as mere evil spirits since the Jewish genesis, it's no stretch that they would adopt the concept and name of a race of demi-gods, but redefine it according to their worldview. The current difference between demon and daemon/daimon is akin to that of magic and magick - some add the k to distinguish between sorcery and stage chicanery, but magic is equally valid a term to refer to the black arts.

That aside, and to the point of the thread, I believe that Satanism is reverse Christianity for almost everybody, at least at the beginning of their path. To say that it's reverse Judaism isn't quite accurate. Christianity is the first to make much ado about Satan. Jews have never much cared for or against the figure, given that the Jews have always viewed Satan as the equivalent of Wonka's Slugworth. The Christians gave Satan a new life as archfiend and elevated him to a high seat in the heavens as God's greatest enemy. Most Satanists are from a Christian background, and it is this background against which we first rebel.

It could be argued that any Satanic branch is reverse Christianity. The LaVeyans say this of any non-LaVeyan Satanism, because they'd rather not credit the validity of a Satanism independent of the CoS. But it could be argued that theirs is a true reverse Christianity, since the starkest contrast to belief is disbelief - so not only have they adopted the symbols that are painful to Christ, but they have also reversed belief itself into disbelief...a true reverse Christianity.

I personally see no problem with the mudsling. As long as one's path is truly a path of its own, rather than just a rebellion, anything else is mere details. See, Satanism is at its core a religion against a religion. And as such, I can't see it as anything more than a means to an end: the first step on a path. If you are content with Satan, without attaining a knowledge of the true nature of the Entity bearing the title, then you're doing both Him and yourself a great disservice.

As far as reverse Judaism, look no further than Ophitic Gnosticism. This is perhaps the first example of a faith that found its birth in a contrary interpretation of commonly accepted scripture. Essentially, it would be the first cult that could be seen as Satanic, though this wouldn't be a term they'd likely accept.


**EDIT**
Let me also add that I myself am of a reverse-Jewish mindset, being an Ophite myself. I lend to credence to the concept of Christ whatsoever, and so my focus is exclusively Judeo in origin. I no longer consider myself properly a Satanist, and haven't for some time, although I have a great respect for and understand the necessity of Satanism.

chronazon
03-31-2009, 12:14 AM
satanism does differant things with beliefs, the belief centers in our brains make us decide if something is good or bad and following this either way, a path of light or darkness, can be self limiting, although both ways can be liberating

Wulzirik
03-31-2009, 06:24 AM
I wouldn't say it's reverse-Christianity at all, especially since one can be both a Satanist and a Christian. Satanism can be one of two things: a) working with Satan as an archetype, or b) working with demons and Satan as a spiritual figure. Neither of these amounts to reverse-Christianity.

By the way, loved the Slugworth comment. LOL Traditionally, Christianity held this view of Satan too. Fundies just decided to completely screw it up, by ignoring the Book of Job altogether.

cobra3
03-31-2009, 08:00 AM
Of course Satanism is just the flip side to Christian insanity. Demons and Gods? To think such is to be trapped in the Christian mythos ~ and it is a pagan mythos.

The fact is in very ancient Judaism there is not the same sense of personification of "God". YHYH, and the later YHVH, is not the name of a thing, but an algebraic formula.

What is Christian in this day is derived from the New Testament as determined by the counsels of the pagan emperor, Constantine. He influenced how the Gospels were edited to insure two things ~ his own empirical power and the continued worship of his mother who founded the Christian church. What the pagans obliterated from those Gospels is an ancient system of magick, far more powerful than most and the forerunner of modern psychology. Freud, Jung, and Gurdjief were all aware of the secret of the Gospels ~ a far greater mystery than the so called Di Vinci Code that it inspired.

All true and great magic, magick, and Majik is founded in the soundest science and physics ~ disciplines far more wondrous than the superstitious imagine.

Are there demons and gods? In a sense ~ as qualities of psyche. I bow to none of them. All gods and demons are mere elements, cogs in the machine of mind, that serve at my bidding.

Great American Desert
03-31-2009, 01:19 PM
Wulzirik: in Christianity, Satan's temptations were independent of God's will, versus the Jewish view that God permitted Satan to test the faith of God's followers...a prosecutor. And I don't want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, but Satanism is a path...a mindset and belief system. One can not be a Christian and a Satanist at the same time.

cobra3: I wouldn't give even early or proto-Christianity that much credit. It was a social movement gone holy. I don't believe there was a lick of magic or even substantial esoterica in its foundation.

Where in the Ozarks are you?

Strider
03-31-2009, 01:42 PM
I do not believe in the Christian God or Satan that is depicted in the bible. I do believe in a divine higher power that is the force in the Universe that we as a collective whole created. Satan to me is a name that was made up to keep the masses in line. Demons I believe just the lower part of us that we have created. Angels to me were always here, and some where some how they made themselves known throughout the thoughts of humans. The Angels to me are not under a deity they are here on their own, as I said in our collective consciousness we created them as all were created. This may sound arrogant but it is not meant to be. It is just my beliefs, I can not speak for anyone else.


I suppose i`m an odd one to then!. For myself, Satan represents the localised god-force for our planet earth, and demons etc are abstractions of this, and to explore/resonate with them one would achieve a conscious integration with "the essence". The "Bride" of Satan would be the feminine aspect of this localised cosmic dance on and around our earth and his terrestrial Mistress, their offspring would be what some would call "life" . I also dissagree that Satan needs to be of judeo christian origin, and one source says not so, and originates from the ancient Greek word "aitia" which means both an acusation and the origin or source of something and this was later taken up by the judaic dualists as was a lot of greek grammar etc. Another note would be that Satan is the Watcher Who Remained and is a Gateway to the Dark Gods and who Sininster practitioners seek to access so as to return these ancient ones to earth.
Anyway, i`m done waffling in your ears, for now ha ha! cheerio!

cobra3
03-31-2009, 01:59 PM
Wulzirik: in Christianity, Satan's temptations were independent of God's will, versus the Jewish view that God permitted Satan to test the faith of God's followers...a prosecutor. And I don't want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, but Satanism is a path...a mindset and belief system. One can not be a Christian and a Satanist at the same time.

cobra3: I wouldn't give even early or proto-Christianity that much credit. It was a social movement gone holy. I don't believe there was a lick of magic or even substantial esoterica in its foundation.

Where in the Ozarks are you?

It does not depend on your giving credit. It is an historic fact that Constantine's intention was to distort the TRUE TEACHINGS. It is also historic fact that Freud, Jung, and Gurdjief (just to name three of very many) were fully aware of those TRUE TEACHINGS. I happen to know the key that unlocks the code of the Gospels. The TRUTH is there for any who can crack the code. While, on the other hand there is no evidence at all that Christianity was a social movement. All of the history was concocted after Constantine.

Satanism is entirely based on the false Christian mythos. In fact such personifications are not acknowledged amongst the earliest Judaic scholars to even be in the scriptures that are purported to be the source material for Christianity ~ the Old Testament. Such characterizations were seen as representing qualities of creation ~ not entities. What most miss is in that tradition there is one understanding that begins with the rabbinical scholars who are permitted to interpret scripture that then modifies when passed on to the masses by the rabbi, who is not permitted to interpret. While this method did manage to preserve much of the original intent on the level of the scholars, it created a common or superstitious interpretation by the masses that led to deification.

Another point, what sort of plastic and exoteric path is Satanism compared to Yezidi which is so much older and so different? It follows the later semi-deified traditions of the period shortly before the supposed crucifixion. In it, and this is not only Yezidi tradition but the accepted view of even recent rabbinical scholars, Lucifer is good and a servant of the one God. He rebels, in the allegorical tale, gets his ass kicked, repents and is cast out, not as punishment, but to serve joyously to set his karma right by filling this world with beauty.

I am in a few locations throughout southeast Kansas and southwest Missouri with one in northern Arkansas.

cobra3
03-31-2009, 02:11 PM
I suppose i`m an odd one to then!. For myself, Satan represents the localised god-force for our planet earth, and demons etc are abstractions of this, and to explore/resonate with them one would achieve a conscious integration with "the essence". The "Bride" of Satan would be the feminine aspect of this localised cosmic dance on and around our earth and his terrestrial Mistress, their offspring would be what some would call "life" . I also dissagree that Satan needs to be of judeo christian origin, and one source says not so, and originates from the ancient Greek word "aitia" which means both an acusation and the origin or source of something and this was later taken up by the judaic dualists as was a lot of greek grammar etc. Another note would be that Satan is the Watcher Who Remained and is a Gateway to the Dark Gods and who Sininster practitioners seek to access so as to return these ancient ones to earth.
Anyway, i`m done waffling in your ears, for now ha ha! cheerio!


Nonsense. What Satanism is today is what it is...not defined by any historic alternate definition of terms. As defined by Satanists, it is a sad little rebellion against fanciful faith, and itself a fanciful faith. With some like the Yezidi who have traditions thousands of years old it is quite another thing. The are accused by the foolish in faith of being Satanists and devil worshippers, when actually they do not worship ~ they revere. What they revere is closer to something that only later was called Satan, a tempter ~ but was originally the symbolic representation of light and beauty, Lucifer. Or as they know it, Malek Taus ~ a peacock of cosmic proportion.

Lady Dunsany
03-31-2009, 02:22 PM
I suppose i`m an odd one to then!. For myself, Satan represents the localised god-force for our planet earth, and demons etc are abstractions of this, and to explore/resonate with them one would achieve a conscious integration with "the essence". The "Bride" of Satan would be the feminine aspect of this localised cosmic dance on and around our earth and his terrestrial Mistress, their offspring would be what some would call "life" . I also dissagree that Satan needs to be of judeo christian origin, and one source says not so, and originates from the ancient Greek word "aitia" which means both an acusation and the origin or source of something and this was later taken up by the judaic dualists as was a lot of greek grammar etc. Another note would be that Satan is the Watcher Who Remained and is a Gateway to the Dark Gods and who Sininster practitioners seek to access so as to return these ancient ones to earth.
Anyway, i`m done waffling in your ears, for now ha ha! cheerio!

I do not think you are an odd one at all, I have respected your insight and input. You can waffle in my ears as much as you like. Smile.

Great American Desert
03-31-2009, 05:37 PM
It does not depend on your giving credit. It is an historic fact that Constantine's intention was to distort the TRUE TEACHINGS. It is also historic fact that Freud, Jung, and Gurdjief (just to name three of very many) were fully aware of those TRUE TEACHINGS. I happen to know the key that unlocks the code of the Gospels. The TRUTH is there for any who can crack the code. While, on the other hand there is no evidence at all that Christianity was a social movement. All of the history was concocted after Constantine.

Satanism is entirely based on the false Christian mythos. In fact such personifications are not acknowledged amongst the earliest Judaic scholars to even be in the scriptures that are purported to be the source material for Christianity ~ the Old Testament. Such characterizations were seen as representing qualities of creation ~ not entities. What most miss is in that tradition there is one understanding that begins with the rabbinical scholars who are permitted to interpret scripture that then modifies when passed on to the masses by the rabbi, who is not permitted to interpret. While this method did manage to preserve much of the original intent on the level of the scholars, it created a common or superstitious interpretation by the masses that led to deification.

Another point, what sort of plastic and exoteric path is Satanism compared to Yezidi which is so much older and so different? It follows the later semi-deified traditions of the period shortly before the supposed crucifixion. In it, and this is not only Yezidi tradition but the accepted view of even recent rabbinical scholars, Lucifer is good and a servant of the one God. He rebels, in the allegorical tale, gets his ass kicked, repents and is cast out, not as punishment, but to serve joyously to set his karma right by filling this world with beauty.

I am in a few locations throughout southeast Kansas and southwest Missouri with one in northern Arkansas.

Given that what you're suggesting about the magickal reality of pre-canonical Christianity is wholly and completely unverifiable, it certainly does depend on me, or anyone else, giving it credit. Yes, Christianity was standardized and constructed according to the preferences of those in power at the time, but this does not mean Christianity was a magical movement of any value. You're entitled to believe that as you will. But if you happen to be privy to the key that unlocks the mysteries of the true Christianity, please do share this wisdom. But one can not say "this is true because I know the secret" and expect to be taken seriously. Subjective truths are only valuable subjectively. One can't quantify "blue is a pretty color". I don't devalue your stance, but I do challenge the idea that there is any value in Christianity whatsoever, particularly from an Occult perspective. Also I would challenge the idea that Satanism is just a cheap imitation of the Yezidi faith. Similarities exist, to be sure; but a causal relationship?

Now, there were Gnostic Christian sects whose views were esoteric in nature, but this wasn't an esoteric belief that stemmed from the Christ cult itself. It was an incorporation of Christian myth into already-present mystery cults. A typical synergy.

I do believe that the Christian cult was largely political. The Jews were a politically inferior people in that time of Roman conquest, and Jesus was the answer to their woes - in a would-be way anyhow. I could be wrong, and will readily admit that. Given that it can't even be proven that Jesus existed, it most certainly can't be proven what his perceived purpose was at the time of his ministry. It's all speculation, just as your idea of a magickal Christianity.

Satanism is largely a response to one's Christian upbringing or surroundings. It follows the current of rebellion out of intellectual necessity. But to call it "a sad little rebellion" makes an ass out of yourself. It's an umbrella term for myriad paths; paths of varied worth and purpose, to be sure, but to cast it down to mere childish rebellion is fallacy. So I'll have to challenge you here: explain your take on what Satanism is, and justify your accusation. If you're unwilling or unable to do this, lay off the insults. This is a Satanism forum, and if your aim is to come in here with your nose in the air, you will easily be tripped. It's fair to verbally disagree; it's unfair to insult.

isis
03-31-2009, 06:27 PM
of course satanism is just the flip side to christian insanity. Demons and gods? To think such is to be trapped in the christian mythos ~ and it is a pagan mythos.

The fact is in very ancient judaism there is not the same sense of personification of "god". Yhyh, and the later yhvh, is not the name of a thing, but an algebraic formula.

What is christian in this day is derived from the new testament as determined by the counsels of the pagan emperor, constantine. He influenced how the gospels were edited to insure two things ~ his own empirical power and the continued worship of his mother who founded the christian church. What the pagans obliterated from those gospels is an ancient system of magick, far more powerful than most and the forerunner of modern psychology. Freud, jung, and gurdjief were all aware of the secret of the gospels ~ a far greater mystery than the so called di vinci code that it inspired.

All true and great magic, magick, and majik is founded in the soundest science and physics ~ disciplines far more wondrous than the superstitious imagine.

Are there demons and gods? In a sense ~ as qualities of psyche. I bow to none of them. All gods and demons are mere elements, cogs in the machine of mind, that serve at my bidding.

like the signature.. It is prity cool.

Strider
03-31-2009, 07:10 PM
Nonsense. What Satanism is today is what it is...not defined by any historic alternate definition of terms. As defined by Satanists, it is a sad little rebellion against fanciful faith, and itself a fanciful faith. With some like the Yezidi who have traditions thousands of years old it is quite another thing. The are accused by the foolish in faith of being Satanists and devil worshippers, when actually they do not worship ~ they revere. What they revere is closer to something that only later was called Satan, a tempter ~ but was originally the symbolic representation of light and beauty, Lucifer. Or as they know it, Malek Taus ~ a peacock of cosmic proportion.

Nonsense maybe, however it is one of many alternate views on the nature of "satanism" other than those peddaled by the infantile christ haters and rebelious teenage glue sniffers inspired by the media and by their own misunderstood shadows. The yezidi are indeed branded wrong (no thanks modernly to LaVey etc) but maybe certain old pagan traditions of Europe were alse miss-branded but chose to play the fools at their own game instead of simply ignoring the slight? Also, maybe certain branches of "satanists" fully understand that their gods/ess/demons etc are merely externalisations from the deeper mind, but use these to better get a grip on certain subconscious elements, suppose Jung etc wouldve understood that aswel.
Personally, i make a point of changing my surface beliefs at least twice a month as to manipulate ones own is a priceless tool so few are prepared to work at.

isis
03-31-2009, 07:38 PM
Nonsense maybe, however it is one of many alternate views of the nature of "satanism" other than those peddaled by the infantile christ haters and rebelious teenage glue sniffers inspired by the media and by their own misunderstood shadows. The yezidi are indeed branded wrong (no thanks modernly to LaVey etc) but maybe certain old pagan traditions of Europe were alse miss-branded but chose to play the fools at their own game instead of ignoring the slight?

i agree my friend..

Strider
03-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Of course Satanism is just the flip side to Christian insanity. Demons and Gods? To think such is to be trapped in the Christian mythos ~ and it is a pagan mythos.

The fact is in very ancient Judaism there is not the same sense of personification of "God". YHYH, and the later YHVH, is not the name of a thing, but an algebraic formula.

What is Christian in this day is derived from the New Testament as determined by the counsels of the pagan emperor, Constantine. He influenced how the Gospels were edited to insure two things ~ his own empirical power and the continued worship of his mother who founded the Christian church. What the pagans obliterated from those Gospels is an ancient system of magick, far more powerful than most and the forerunner of modern psychology. Freud, Jung, and Gurdjief were all aware of the secret of the Gospels ~ a far greater mystery than the so called Di Vinci Code that it inspired.

All true and great magic, magick, and Majik is founded in the soundest science and physics ~ disciplines far more wondrous than the superstitious imagine.

Are there demons and gods? In a sense ~ as qualities of psyche. I bow to none of them. All gods and demons are mere elements, cogs in the machine of mind, that serve at my bidding.

Believing that the gods/ess are merely aspects of ones mind should not prevent one from using such magical tools as believing that they really do exist to explore the psyche? Whether one agrees or not the majority of people born within the "West" are born imprinted with the judo-Christian/dualistic archetype, as the psyche draws its "energy" from the current (and distorted) aeon that we have yet to completely shed. This begins the "reef of the soul" and is built upon dramatically by the environmental factors - family/friends the media and the education systems etc. etc. - (which are flock orientated dualistic and unbalanced due to the fact that the "dark side" is suppressed and the "light side" deemed as necessary for social acceptance etc) until the individual reaches adulthood and, if lucky, discovers that their beliefs opinions characteristics etc are not their own but have been taken on board unknowingly from their peers etc throughout these formative years. One purpose of "Satanism" in the early stages is to break down this restrictive mindset, to confront what has been suppressed, to break taboo and to bring the mind into some kind of balanced state so as to eventually transcend opposites and return the mind to its intended pre-distorted and truly Western archetypes.
Maybe some disagree with the names used but no other name will be as effective as "Satan" in confronting the plague from the dessert that has been branded upon the western psyche,
there are many new and exciting expressions of the sinister now but the "trigger" of Satan is and will be for some years yet a necessary tool for many in the overcoming of the distorted essence that still informs western "civilisation" Why would we want to take this from them? Realy?

cobra3
03-31-2009, 10:16 PM
Perhaps, if it were not for the code and how very easy it is to crack that code, there would be no solid way to verify such claims. But this has little to do with my contention. Whether it can be verified or not to your satisfaction is not at issue. Whether it was verifiable to others who are responsible for magical traditions to this day is far more determining. Christianity was not a magical movement until recent centuries based on solving the code.

YHShVH was NEVER a man. It was an oral magick (with a “k”) tradition. The very formulation of the term YHShVH from YHVH, and that from the earlier YHYH makes it evident. Superstition made it a man just as superstition made qualities of creation into deities. Christianity as magick, something that in no way resembles the religion, gave birth to modern psychology. That, alone, makes it one of the most significant magick systems in history. The point should be made before we proceed, low level magic, like Wicca, exists as movements. Magick does not. It creates movements that have given us things like psychology, mathematics, music, and language.

Satanism is in no way a cheap imitation of the beautiful and reverent Yezidi. I have personally known many of these Satanists, including that moron, Anton. Anton was not knowledgeable enough to even know what a Yezidi is. Satanism is not derived directly from more legitimate Luciferian traditions. It was born out of Western knee-jerk superstition.

Yes, I do know the code. I also know that those who would presume to discuss such things as though knowingly should be well aware that there are many books on it and an entire school associated with it. Those who know the code and live by THE WAY played an integral and determining part in shaping the twentieth century, holding seminars that were very popular across the United States and Europe. Crowley, in fact, toured the United States partly out of jealousy and concern over its growing influence.

Satanism is reactionary. That is the point. You pay no attention to history however. Christianity was one thing before Constantine’s mother ~ a secret brotherhood. She made it a church so that she herself could be revered as the mother figure. Christianity was quite another after her son. He, Constantine called together the counsels to edit the Gospels because of the growing influence among the populace of that secret brotherhood presenting THE WAY contrary to his mother’s church. It was spawning sects. According to THE WAY there is no lord…none…no earthly rulers. Adonai is lord. Rightly understood, Adonai today would translate to “genius”. This did not at all fit with the pagan paradigm. Constantine was lord and his mother, the blessed Marry.


Given that what you're suggesting about the magickal reality of pre-canonical Christianity is wholly and completely unverifiable, it certainly does depend on me, or anyone else, giving it credit. Yes, Christianity was standardized and constructed according to the preferences of those in power at the time, but this does not mean Christianity was a magical movement of any value. You're entitled to believe that as you will. But if you happen to be privy to the key that unlocks the mysteries of the true Christianity, please do share this wisdom. But one can not say "this is true because I know the secret" and expect to be taken seriously. Subjective truths are only valuable subjectively. One can't quantify "blue is a pretty color". I don't devalue your stance, but I do challenge the idea that there is any value in Christianity whatsoever, particularly from an Occult perspective. Also I would challenge the idea that Satanism is just a cheap imitation of the Yezidi faith. Similarities exist, to be sure; but a causal relationship?

Now, there were Gnostic Christian sects whose views were esoteric in nature, but this wasn't an esoteric belief that stemmed from the Christ cult itself. It was an incorporation of Christian myth into already-present mystery cults. A typical synergy.

I do believe that the Christian cult was largely political. The Jews were a politically inferior people in that time of Roman conquest, and Jesus was the answer to their woes - in a would-be way anyhow. I could be wrong, and will readily admit that. Given that it can't even be proven that Jesus existed, it most certainly can't be proven what his perceived purpose was at the time of his ministry. It's all speculation, just as your idea of a magickal Christianity.

Satanism is largely a response to one's Christian upbringing or surroundings. It follows the current of rebellion out of intellectual necessity. But to call it "a sad little rebellion" makes an ass out of yourself. It's an umbrella term for myriad paths; paths of varied worth and purpose, to be sure, but to cast it down to mere childish rebellion is fallacy. So I'll have to challenge you here: explain your take on what Satanism is, and justify your accusation. If you're unwilling or unable to do this, lay off the insults. This is a Satanism forum, and if your aim is to come in here with your nose in the air, you will easily be tripped. It's fair to verbally disagree; it's unfair to insult.

cobra3
03-31-2009, 10:36 PM
Nonsense maybe, however it is one of many alternate views on the nature of "satanism" other than those peddaled by the infantile christ haters and rebelious teenage glue sniffers inspired by the media and by their own misunderstood shadows. The yezidi are indeed branded wrong (no thanks modernly to LaVey etc) but maybe certain old pagan traditions of Europe were alse miss-branded but chose to play the fools at their own game instead of simply ignoring the slight? Also, maybe certain branches of "satanists" fully understand that their gods/ess/demons etc are merely externalisations from the deeper mind, but use these to better get a grip on certain subconscious elements, suppose Jung etc wouldve understood that aswel.
Personally, i make a point of changing my surface beliefs at least twice a month as to manipulate ones own is a priceless tool so few are prepared to work at.


Satanism is reactionary. That is the point. You pay no attention to history however. Christianity was one thing before Constantine’s mother ~ a secret brotherhood. She made it a church so that she herself could be revered as the mother figure. Christianity was quite another after her son. He, Constantine called together the counsels to edit the Gospels because of the growing influence among the populace of that secret brotherhood presenting THE WAY contrary to his mother’s church. In was spawning sects. According to THE WAY there is no lord…none…no earthly rulers. Adonai is lord. Rightly understood, Adonai today would translate to “genius”. This did not at all fit with the pagan paradigm. Constantine was lord and his mother, the blessed Marry.


Look, it is not an alternate view. Yezidi is not alternate. If anything Satanism would be alternate but it isn’t even that. Western Satanism is foolishness. It is not based on revered traditions. It is based on adolescent rebellion some never out grow. In fact many, including Anton LeVay, knew this and were just out to capitalize off immature angst ~ something those of us with hair on our privates have generally outgrown. In those days long ago, Anton admitted this openly. Well, openly among us.

Of course, there is the European version of Devil worship. That is nothing more than emotive compulsiveness that acts out as wicked behavior, usually accompanied with sadomasochism. Not a legitimate occult tradition ~ just nasty.

Where it is legitimate occult tradition, as with Yezidi, I do not take issue with it. But Yezidi is not worshipful. It is reverent. It does not revere a negative. Lucifer, Malek Taus, the great Peacock God, (a quality ~ not a personification) is seen as the giver of light and beauty and a gift to man. The religious faithful who BELIEVE in good and evil in both Muslim and Christian sects have been attempting to annihilate the Yezidi for this very sane occult tradition. It is estimated that the FAITHFUL have succeeded and the Yezidi culture is no longer large enough to survive. How long before all we have is a plastic Jesus on that dash board and a cheesy red devil tattoo to go with it?

cobra3
03-31-2009, 10:59 PM
"Satanism is largely a response to one's Christian upbringing or surroundings. It follows the current of rebellion out of intellectual necessity. But to call it "a sad little rebellion" makes an ass out of yourself. It's an umbrella term for myriad paths; paths of varied worth and purpose, to be sure, but to cast it down to mere childish rebellion is fallacy. So I'll have to challenge you here: explain your take on what Satanism is, and justify your accusation. If you're unwilling or unable to do this, lay off the insults. This is a Satanism forum, and if your aim is to come in here with your nose in the air, you will easily be tripped. It's fair to verbally disagree; it's unfair to insult."


Don’t blame the messenger! The facts about both Wicca and Satanism are difficult for some. That is not my problem. My take on Satanism, dear, is based on very many years active in the occult on a level you have not even imagined. This includes having personally known Kenneth Anger, Anton Wilson, and Kenneth Grant ~ and some far greater than they you would not have heard about.

Look kids, I do not mean to seem disrespectful. Really, I am not. My perspective is from knowing the BO of some of those you admire and misread. I am not some child seeking a way. I am an accomplished esoteric jeweler and have been involved in New Age sense the days when I sipped coffee with an opium floater across from Jerry Garcia and Stewart Brand.

And don't expect fair from me. I am as fair as any natural disaster.

Lady Dunsany
03-31-2009, 11:05 PM
Okay. Let us try to keep this civil and leave the egos at the door, unless any of us is a God which I seriously doubt we still no matter how old we are have a lot to learn. I can throw names around too, but what good is that going to do. Everyone here is an individual with their beliefs and their own trek on their journey. the only one that can judge another human being is themselves. Frankly this is not a Satanism thread it is a question concerning both Christianity and Satanism so all are free to give their opinion. Let us keep it that way.

cobra3
04-01-2009, 12:20 AM
Okay. Let us try to keep this civil and leave the egos at the door, unless any of us is a God which I seriously doubt we still no matter how old we are have a lot to learn. I can throw names around too, but what good is that going to do. Everyone here is an individual with their beliefs and their own trek on their journey. the only one that can judge another human being is themselves. Frankly this is not a Satanism thread it is a question concerning both Christianity and Satanism so all are free to give their opinion. Let us keep it that way.

Never leave a valuable ego at the door. If that is called for, one such as Salvador Dali would not be welcome here. Some value well formed and disciplined ego.

Communicating is not a matter of how much we have to learn or even how much we THINK we know. The point of communicating is to share what it is that is valid and works. I am successful enough to speak with full confidence in many arenas, regardless of whom I have known. Who I have known is a result of personal effectiveness. I did not know them as an aspirant on my part. We were peers or they sought my work. The point being made is in response to the query ~ I speak as one of many who formulated this New Age.

Nor do all value belief. Belief, when held as hypothesis towards coming to conclusions beyond belief is a tool. Beyond that, belief and sectarian faith are the leading cause of war, atrocities, and genocide.

Link
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Lady Dunsany
04-01-2009, 12:31 AM
Oh pleeze spare me . Blah Blah Blah. An ego is not valuable it gets in the way of what is truly important, and you know that better than anyone what is important. So let us get down to brass tactics if you are the natural disaster then I am the one that fuels it to a small pebble. Hey nice to meet you.

cobra3
04-01-2009, 12:51 AM
Oh pleeze spare me . Blah Blah Blah. An ego is not valuable it gets in the way of what is truly important, and you know that better than anyone what is important. So let us get down to brass tactics if you are the natural disaster then I am the one that fuels it to a small pebble. Hey nice to meet you.


Opinions are like (well, that thing we all have). Guess what? Salvador Dali's is prettier than yours. All depends on what you consider truly important. Gandhi had monstrous ego, as did Dali, Crowley, and many others that determine our destinies. I admit readily mine is huge. Large enough that I create jobs, invent devices to make your life safer, other devices that enable the disabled, do pioneering work with brain trauma victims, and am so damned big headed when I adopted a child I sought the one most in need. She is agenesis corpus collasum and hydrocephalic. You got to have hairy ones hanging to the floor to take that on. But, what the hey. I am a conceited son of a bitch. Wonder what it is that got in the way of all others who would not have her?

Link
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Strider
04-01-2009, 01:10 AM
Never leave a valuable ego at the door. If that is called for, one such as Salvador Dali would not be welcome here. Some value well formed and disciplined ego.

Communicating is not a matter of how much we have to learn or even how much we THINK we know. The point of communicating is to share what it is that is valid and works. I am successful enough to speak with full confidence in many arenas, regardless of whom I have known. Who I have known is a result of personal effectiveness. I did not know them as an aspirant on my part. We were peers or they sought my work. The point being made is in response to the query ~ I speak as one of many who formulated this New Age.

Nor do all value belief. Belief, when held as hypothesis towards coming to conclusions beyond belief is a tool. Beyond that, belief and sectarian faith are the leading cause of war, atrocities, and genocide.

Link
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

Few magical traditions recognize the ego as usefull, those that do are mostly concerened with wallowing in their supposed abilities and not pushing them to the point of transformation. Many who speak of being this successful or that well connected would not need to do so if this were really so, it would speak for itself in the way they conducted their connection with others. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my second reply as you are truely a brick wall and i like you for this. As for "this new age" which one would that be? ha ha, which brings me back to said second reply on belief.
However, as Lady D said, enough of this, it is now boring and unproductive and would be well placed in another forum. Unless of course you are simply playing the accuser that you claim to despise so much? !!!

cobra3
04-01-2009, 01:35 AM
Few magical traditions recognize the ego as usefull, those that do are mostly concerened with wallowing in their supposed abilities and not pushing them to the point of transformation. Many who speak of being this successful or that well connected would not need to do so if this were really so, it would speak for itself in the way they conducted their connection with others. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my second reply as you are truely a brick wall and i like you for this. As for "this new age" which one would that be? ha ha, which brings me back to said second reply on belief.
However, as Lady D said, enough of this, it is now boring and unproductive and would be well placed in another forum. Unless of course you are simply playing the accuser that you claim to despise so much? !!!

This merely betrays your lack of knowledge. Perfection of ego is most certainly part of some magick traditions. Magic, on the other hand, is merely craft, not a system of self development and is not at issue, so "magical" traditions do not apply. As pointed out, I was replying to a query, not wallowing in abilities.

Degrees of civility subjectively measured have nothing at all to do with successes in anything ~ except false seductions, perhaps. My work is all the proof of success required and it is extensive.

The New Age mentioned was capitalized, making it a proper name. That would be the one most noted in history that swirled about the publication of Stewart’s, Whole Earth. The one many of us launched in the mid sixties. I am now involved in another called CONSPIRACY that is about to hit the web.

Link
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Strider
04-01-2009, 02:10 AM
This merely betrays your lack of knowledge. Perfection of ego is most certainly part of some magick traditions. Magic, on the other hand, is merely craft, not a system of self development and is not at issue, so "magical" traditions do not apply. As pointed out, I was replying to a query, not wallowing in abilities.

Degrees of civility subjectively measured have nothing at all to do with successes in anything ~ except false seductions, perhaps. My work is all the proof of success required and it is extensive.

The New Age mentioned was capitalized, making it a proper name. That would be the one most noted in history that swirled about the publication of Stewart’s, Whole Earth. The one many of us launched in the mid sixties. I am now involved in another called CONSPIRACY that is about to hit the web.

Link
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

I think you will see that i said "few magical traditions" not none. How can one practice any magical "craft" and not evolve consciously? Unless one comunicates with stratified or even inferior forces perminently?
Many "new ages" are loged in the history books, that is where they belong unless they form part of a "living tradition of change" and such a thing is rarely written down for the collective mind. Anything else i want to say i`ve said in previous replies i believe so i will leave this thread up to you and yours my friend. Have fun.

cobra3
04-01-2009, 02:21 AM
I think you will see that i said "few magical traditions" not none. How can one practice any magical "craft" and not evolve consciously? Unless one comunicates with stratified or even inferior forces perminently?
Many "new ages" are loged in the history books, that is where they belong unless they form part of a "living tradition of change" and such a thing is rarely written down for the collective mind. Anything else i want to say i`ve said in previous replies i believe so i will leave this thread up to you and yours my friend. Have fun.


No magic tradition deals with self perfection and all magick traditions do, by definition. One is "the craft" ~ the other "The Great Work". Most magick traditions DO deal with perfection of ego in the world. Mahatma was reproached for it at the fountain by one far less than he. Some are meant to surrender as compost does that the few may grow as the great oak from that dissolution.

Link
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cobra3
04-01-2009, 02:29 AM
I think you will see that i said "few magical traditions" not none. How can one practice any magical "craft" and not evolve consciously? Unless one comunicates with stratified or even inferior forces perminently?
Many "new ages" are loged in the history books, that is where they belong unless they form part of a "living tradition of change" and such a thing is rarely written down for the collective mind. Anything else i want to say i`ve said in previous replies i believe so i will leave this thread up to you and yours my friend. Have fun.


Too many make the fatal error of thinking transcendence is denial. Those who know better see that we are separate for that great joy of union. Those who know are grateful to transcend a greater ego for a greater transcendence. It is a weak and sickly steed you ride ~ mine, a proud stallion. Our destination may seem the same to you, to reach a point where one dismounts, but one ends in the wilderness in weakness and the other is carried to the oasis astride strength.

Link
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

Great American Desert
04-01-2009, 05:29 AM
cobra3, do bear in mind that I am no Satanist, so I take neither exception nor offense directly as a result of your comments. I do find them arrogant, and coupled with your championing about of who you know and what you've done (how very vogue), I'll make bold to say that your knowledge is likely more superficial than any enthusiastic Occult newbie reading everything he can get his hands on.

I know a mechanic, but I do not know how to fix a car. I know a farmer, but couldn't likely grow a useful crop. I know a doctor but can not heal another. Or do I really know people of these profession? That's the power of the internet. I can tell you I know any number of people, and you'd have no way of knowing this aside from my word. And even if I did, the fact remains that I am not who I know. And as such, even if you have known these perhaps-great, more-likely-self-aggrandizing personalities, this does not make you an expert. You may be, you may not be. You seem well read, but not any wiser than very many other of this ilk. Gnosis is not in who you know or even what you've read. You can read to attain knowledge, but Knowledge can come only by experience. So while some might be misreading these well known authors that you claim to know and fully understand, they may well Know the truths that inspired these writings. Only the individual knows for sure.

But I have to be suspicious of any fellow elevating Christianity to the status of an esoteric brotherhood that was secret for any better reason than to escape persecution. Suspicious why? Because quite frankly, it's BS. Something has hit this kind of person in a way that they couldn't quite understand. There is no more esoteric value in Christianity than there is in the Mohammed cult. I once had a supposed Luciferian tell me that I was falsely Luciferian because I did not have the love of Christ. I laughed him out of town.

You and I clearly have divergent interpretations of history. Given the impossibility of providing any empirical proof to justify either of our stances, it must logically be said that they are of equal validity. I don't believe that they're of equal validity, from my own subjective vantage, but this is the logical way to look at it. But of course you'll continue to 'talk big' and claim that your famous friends make you a master, and I'll continue calling your bluff - any man speaking with such proud authority in matters of the unobservable deserves one raised brow, myself included. Let the discerning weed through our rhetoric at their discretion. It may be found that we're both full of s**t. One mustn't confuse pretension for mastery.

The Luciferian is ever the student. True Holy Perfection is not attained in this life, and so a certain degree of humility is the appropriate etiquette.


GAD...I edited two words in your post, but not your post. We need to keep our licence so we keep the unsavoury words out of posts....Thanks

cobra3
04-01-2009, 06:03 AM
cobra3, do bear in mind that I am no Satanist, so I take neither exception nor offense directly as a result of your comments. I do find them arrogant, and coupled with your championing about of who you know and what you've done (how very vogue), I'll make bold to say that your knowledge is likely more superficial than any enthusiastic Occult newbie reading everything he can get his hands on.

I know a mechanic, but I do not know how to fix a car. I know a farmer, but couldn't likely grow a useful crop. I know a doctor but can not heal another. Or do I really know people of these profession? That's the power of the internet. I can tell you I know any number of people, and you'd have no way of knowing this aside from my word. And even if I did, the fact remains that I am not who I know. And as such, even if you have known these perhaps-great, more-likely-self-aggrandizing personalities, this does not make you an expert. You may be, you may not be. You seem well read, but not any wiser than very many other of this ilk. Gnosis is not in who you know or even what you've read. You can read to attain knowledge, but Knowledge can come only by experience. So while some might be misreading these well known authors that you claim to know and fully understand, they may well Know the truths that inspired these writings. Only the individual knows for sure.

But I have to be suspicious of any fellow elevating Christianity to the status of an esoteric brotherhood that was secret for any better reason than to escape persecution. Suspicious why? Because quite frankly, it's BS. Something has hit this kind of person in a way that they couldn't quite understand. There is no more esoteric value in Christianity than there is in the Mohammed cult. I once had a supposed Luciferian tell me that I was falsely Luciferian because I did not have the love of Christ. I laughed him out of town.

You and I clearly have divergent interpretations of history. Given the impossibility of providing any empirical proof to justify either of our stances, it must logically be said that they are of equal validity. I don't believe that they're of equal validity, from my own subjective vantage, but this is the logical way to look at it. But of course you'll continue to 'talk big' and claim that your famous friends make you a master, and I'll continue calling your bluff - any man speaking with such proud authority in matters of the unobservable deserves one raised brow, myself included. Let the discerning weed through our rhetoric at their discretion. It may be found that we're both full of s**t. One mustn't confuse pretension for mastery.

The Luciferian is ever the student. True Holy Perfection is not attained in this life, and so a certain degree of humility is the appropriate etiquette.


GAD...I edited two words in your post, but not your post. We need to keep our licence so we keep the unsavoury words out of posts....Thanks

Well, gee, guess that would be swell, if at all true. First, I mentioned who I know only in response to query, and do agree that it means little. More importantly was where and what I was doing when I met those individuals. I do post some evidence of who I am in a link and in photos in an album here, but all that aside ~ what we are dealing with here is not your opinion versus mine and neither confirmable. My position can most certainly and easily be confirmed. Frankly, it is far more fun holding off on doing so.

Yet, I have made references that should have been clue enough to any true seeker. There just seems so few here. Whether YHShVH is a legitimate esoteric tradition in your opinion or mine is less important than if it is in the opinion of some who have shaped the present day esoteric movement. THAT IS FACT and easily verified. Not only that, you do have to be rather ill informed not to know of it.

Link
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Strider
04-01-2009, 09:48 AM
Too many make the fatal error of thinking transcendence is denial. Those who know better see that we are separate for that great joy of union. Those who know are grateful to transcend a greater ego for a greater transcendence. It is a weak and sickly steed you ride ~ mine, a proud stallion. Our destination may seem the same to you, to reach a point where one dismounts, but one ends in the wilderness in weakness and the other is carried to the oasis astride strength.

Link
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

Then you at least agree that ones ego is to be trancended then, but why can not another persons be transcended in a different - though admitedly more extreme and hence "quicker" - way to your own? On another point, i never claimed your "satan" as my own simply offered an alternative take on it, one of a dozen takes i do or have in the past alternated within for purposess of Self advancement in the world, so the horse i currently ride would be unknown to you, and my destination completely alien to your own. If you could stop missreading and see your way is a path and not a full stop whilst you write, then we have been agreeing on most points. I still claim you more "satanist" than I was at your stage of ego - and most others around today,- but this is for alchemical change no?

cobra3
04-01-2009, 11:37 AM
Then you at least agree that ones ego is to be trancended then, but why can not another persons be transcended in a different - though admitedly more extreme and hence "quicker" - way to your own? On another point, i never claimed your "satan" as my own simply offered an alternative take on it, one of a dozen takes i do or have in the past alternated within for purposess of Self advancement in the world, so the horse i currently ride would be unknown to you, and my destination completely alien to your own. If you could stop missreading and see your way is a path and not a full stop whilst you write, then we have been agreeing on most points. I still claim you more "satanist" than I was at your stage of ego - and most others around today,- but this is for alchemical change no?

KIDS!

You do not even begin to comprehend what transcendence means. It is not to deny ego or lesson it in any way.

As for Satan, I do not lay claim to any such superstitious claptrap. Relative to Satanism as it exists today and this topic, the one that matters is the one generally accepted by fools ~ that one defined by Satanic groups and by Anton.

You can not fool someone with my experience ~ it is obvious you do not have a clue even what transcendence is in the REAL world, and you have said not one thing that indicates comprehension of any of the “paths” (there are only five) and certainly nothing to indicate that you possess the poetic sensitivities called for in alchemy.

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Odin
04-01-2009, 12:41 PM
And don't expect fair from me. I am as fair as any natural disaster.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Well let's just leave the egos at the door Jerry Garcia well I'm not really impressed son have been known break bread with many in the business as being employed in the business I will say Jerry just like the rest of us is just like the rest of us a human being but more down to earth that most

and the same goes in the field and study of occultism the many mentors that I have been associated with never let there ego's cloud there site and never got into the Hollywood connection like some even the one that the Magican card is fashioned after on a widely used tarot deck that has been around probably when you were young

these same mentors said be opened to all that is give as we are here to learn from all even those that are younger than you might have had more incarnations than you that we " Take what you want and leave the rest behind "

the way I see it is that maybe Satanism is the true Christianity of old meaning that the 1st rule is Harm no child or animal where

seeing Christianity of today that is all that seems to happen !!

cobra3
04-01-2009, 01:02 PM
And don't expect fair from me. I am as fair as any natural disaster.[/B][/COLOR]

Well let's just leave the egos at the door Jerry Garcia well I'm not really impressed son have been known break bread with many in the business as being employed in the business I will say Jerry just like the rest of us is just like the rest of us a human being but more down to earth that most

and the same goes in the field and study of occultism the many mentors that I have been associated with never let there ego's cloud there site and never got into the Hollywood connection like some even the one that the Magican card is fashioned after on a widely used tarot deck that has been around probably when you were young

these same mentors said be opened to all that is give as we are here to learn from all even those that are younger than you might have had more incarnations than you that we " Take what you want and leave the rest behind "

the way I see it is that maybe Satanism is the true Christianity of old meaning that the 1st rule is Harm no child or animal where

seeing Christianity of today that is all that seems to happen !![/QUOTE]

Look, we are not talking here of the same thing. First, if he had only thought of it, Dali would have said, “Never leave a perfectly good ego at the door ~ it might prove useful.”

You are rambling and near incoherent, right down to syntax, punctuation, and spelling. Pretty much invalidates anything you might have desired to convey here if you had been sober.

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Lady Dunsany
04-01-2009, 01:18 PM
Ouch. Let us keep it civil here. For the record Odin does not drink or do drugs. I suspect he has not had his coffee yet.

cobra3
04-01-2009, 01:26 PM
Ouch. Let us keep it civil here. For the record Odin does not drink or do drugs. I suspect he has not had his coffee yet.

Regardless...incoherent drivel. I write better than that asleep...with a few typos. It totally makes a point. Many are posting without any effort to get on point. It is just reactionary crap based on personal viewpoints concerning silly issues like the nature and purpose of ego. Crimany guys, if you aint Dali, get over ego ~ but thank the gods for Dali. Some here talk like exceptional genius is the new nigger.

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Lady Dunsany
04-01-2009, 02:47 PM
You know with that yellow writing it basically makes you look like an insecure thirteen year old trying to get attention. Salvatore Dali please. I do not think you are in any position to judge on what a person knows or does not know. Frankly to be honest your posts sound totally incoherent, but I suppose to you they sound brilliant. As far as posting better in your sleep perhaps you do as what I have seen here is basically that of a person who talks in trivial
sentences because you do not know how to talk in a way that has meaning. I am going to say it again instead of preaching with that inflated ego and proslytizing on what everyone here should know, try actually post something that is worth reading. I am not going to say it again. I am sure there are plenty of New Age stores you can peddle your crap. keep it up and you will be handed your hat without your cane.

cobra3
04-01-2009, 03:52 PM
You know with that yellow writing it basically makes you look like an insecure thirteen year old trying to get attention. Salvatore Dali please. I do not think you are in any position to judge on what a person knows or does not know. Frankly to be honest your posts sound totally incoherent, but I suppose to you they sound brilliant. As far as posting better in your sleep perhaps you do as what I have seen here is basically that of a person who talks in trivial
sentences because you do not know how to talk in a way that has meaning. I am going to say it again instead of preaching with that inflated ego and proslytizing on what everyone here should know, try actually post something that is worth reading. I am not going to say it again. I am sure there are plenty of New Age stores you can peddle your crap. keep it up and you will be handed your hat without your cane.

Or what? You have this wonderful place here I will miss? Look kid, these forums are a dime a dozen any more. I am posting to several right now, have my own, and give maybe one a week away free. The framework for forums is a free download (I have several different kinds you can choose from) and the ones I give away free have original art work. Frankly, this one sucks. GET OVER YOURSELF.

We are in the process of putting together forums within worlds that are MMO3DI. Members have animated avatars that wander virtual realms and meet in counsel chambers in full 3D animated virtual reality. You think because you have a cheesy dime a dozen board, I am impressed? Think again.

No doubt I am incomprehensible to you. I would expect many things are. Still, you just might grow out of it…maybe. It begins with realizing just because you can’t comprehend, does not mean no one can.

While the large type and colors are a bit flashy, I do find them expressive and with failing eyesight, quite helpful when proofing. Those like you who get all puffed because someone thinks differently and posts differently are more fascist than occultist.

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isis
04-01-2009, 04:02 PM
or what? You have this wonderful place here i will miss? Look kid, these forums are a dime a dozen any more. I am posting to several right now, have my own, and give maybe one a week away free. The framework for forums is a free download (i have several different kinds you can choose from) and the ones i give away free have original art work. Frankly, this one sucks. Get over yourself.

We are in the process of putting together forums within worlds that are mmo3di. Members have animated avatars that wander virtual realms and meet in counsel chambers in full 3d animated virtual reality. You think because you have a cheesy dime a dozen board, i am impressed? Think again.

No doubt i am incomprehensible to you. I would expect many things are. Still, you just might grow out of it…maybe. It begins with realizing just because you can’t comprehend, does not mean no one can.

While the large type and colors are a bit flashy, i do find them expressive and with failing eyesight, quite helpful when proofing. Those like you who get all puffed because someone thinks differently and posts differently are more fascist than occultist.

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please clam down and take a deep brath please.. I like your debat and would like to read more. So jest calm down. Can we please get back to the thread at hand and stop yelling at eachother. All of this energy being throwin around is making me dizzy and sick so please stop. I cant take this much energy all of it ar one time.. So please calm down everyone i am sitting here and looking at all this and it is making me want to overlode. And in case you are wandering i am a vampire/witch a hybrid if you wish to call it and i feed off of energy like this and it is like overlode so please stop the yelling.

Odin
04-01-2009, 04:41 PM
Lets just get to the point if you think that the forum sucks then here's your hat what's your hurry.

As for being incoherent maybe it was the one too many trips that you took with Jerry and it might be the cause of effect that is probably is why you feel that you are a disaster waiting to happen.

Lady Dunsany
04-01-2009, 04:58 PM
Or what? You have this wonderful place here I will miss? Look kid, these forums are a dime a dozen any more. I am posting to several right now, have my own, and give maybe one a week away free. The framework for forums is a free download (I have several different kinds you can choose from) and the ones I give away free have original art work. Frankly, this one sucks. GET OVER YOURSELF.

We are in the process of putting together forums within worlds that are MMO3DI. Members have animated avatars that wander virtual realms and meet in counsel chambers in full 3D animated virtual reality. You think because you have a cheesy dime a dozen board, I am impressed? Think again.

No doubt I am incomprehensible to you. I would expect many things are. Still, you just might grow out of it…maybe. It begins with realizing just because you can’t comprehend, does not mean no one can.

While the large type and colors are a bit flashy, I do find them expressive and with failing eyesight, quite helpful when proofing. Those like you who get all puffed because someone thinks differently and posts differently are more fascist than occultist.

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Well the fascist was my father not me, but I am sure he will appreciate the nod. Difference of opinion is not the problem here, it is your attitude that you are the only one that has the answer. I don't care if you believe that blue balloons will show you the way, but being insulting and telling one of the mods they have a drinking problem is not a difference of opinion, it is just to stir up trouble. I am under the impression that if no one sees it your way then they are either stupid, incoherent or drunk. I am sorry your eyesight is failing but everyone has their problems. Since our forum is not to your liking, then perhaps you should just read for a bit, and sit on the sidelines. Ornery, you have not seen ornery yet. Oh by the way, nice store.

Lady Dunsany
04-01-2009, 05:13 PM
Oh yes, one more thing. Let us get back on topic and commence with the discussion.

cobra3
04-01-2009, 05:34 PM
Well the fascist was my father not me, but I am sure he will appreciate the nod. Difference of opinion is not the problem here, it is your attitude that you are the only one that has the answer. I don't care if you believe that blue balloons will show you the way, but being insulting and telling one of the mods they have a drinking problem is not a difference of opinion, it is just to stir up trouble. I am under the impression that if no one sees it your way then they are either stupid, incoherent or drunk. I am sorry your eyesight is failing but everyone has their problems. Since our forum is not to your liking, then perhaps you should just read for a bit, and sit on the sidelines. Ornery, you have not seen ornery yet. Oh by the way, nice store.

No, I have never claimed an answer at all. You have. My contention stands and is irrefutable. Satanism as it exists today is just the flip side of the FALSE Christianity that is the direct result of the pagan emperor Constantine’s counsels. No one disputes that those counsels edited the New Testament. No one disputes the fact that over 90% of the content was edited out. No one disputes the fact that Constantine had a political agenda that strongly influenced all this. The only defense given by false Christians is that by some miracle the truth was preserved. This is true but they can not even see what was preserved. It is also true, while certainly disputed by the false in faith, that YHShVH was never this man later called Jesus, but an oral magick tradition. Look at the formulation (or word). First you have YHYH. Then that becomes YHVH. This is the actual magick formulation taught within the system. You throw a letter Shin in the middle, and if you know some qabalah, that sucker is screaming RECEIVING THE LIGHT FROM ON HIGH BY MEANS OF ORAL INSTRUCTON.

Now, while you may contest this, others like Gurdjief accept it…many and very powerful others.

Also, the point was made that the Satan worshiped in Satanism today is not the Malek Taus of the Yezidi. The Yezidi are the oldest and purest of the sects that revere The Angel of Light. Judaism reveres this archetype as well, and does not see it as dark or opposed to YHYH at all. It is forgiven and serves YHYH repentantly. Again, none of this is my opinion. I may even disagree with much of it. It is fact.

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cobra3
04-01-2009, 05:42 PM
Well the fascist was my father not me, but I am sure he will appreciate the nod. Difference of opinion is not the problem here, it is your attitude that you are the only one that has the answer. I don't care if you believe that blue balloons will show you the way, but being insulting and telling one of the mods they have a drinking problem is not a difference of opinion, it is just to stir up trouble. I am under the impression that if no one sees it your way then they are either stupid, incoherent or drunk. I am sorry your eyesight is failing but everyone has their problems. Since our forum is not to your liking, then perhaps you should just read for a bit, and sit on the sidelines. Ornery, you have not seen ornery yet. Oh by the way, nice store.

Store? Darlin' I do not do store. If you are talking about Storybook, it is a studio. I have two and a robotics lab. My work is not sold in stores anywhere...not since the Bordello days back when I was young and oh so dangerous.

I have sold to kings and presidents. I don't need to advertise or retail.

And I don't do sideline.

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isis
04-01-2009, 05:45 PM
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i like this and the music is good but what is with the flashy lights.. sorry but i got a head ack right now.

cobra3
04-01-2009, 05:48 PM
Lets just get to the point if you think that the forum sucks then here's your hat what's your hurry.

As for being incoherent maybe it was the one too many trips that you took with Jerry and it might be the cause of effect that is probably is why you feel that you are a disaster waiting to happen.


Is English a second language? Do you always construct sentences this way? What is your problem with poor Jerry? Why not go on a bit about crazy ol' Stewart Brand?

Actually, Stew was and is a saint. Nicest person I ever met.

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cobra3
04-01-2009, 05:58 PM
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i like this and the music is good but what is with the flashy lights.. sorry but i got a head ack right now.[/QUOTE]


Well, thank you dear! Folks usually complain about my sound compositions more than the flashy lights. The flashy lights are "hypnoids". They work together with later content, most especially the qabalah and tatwa segments at this time, to induce visions.

There is much more beyond the dead ends that are MMO3DI. The flashy content in this 2D segment is balanced with the lighting and textures of the 3D segment to cause mild hallucinations. The 3D is down right now as I switch it over to different software engines which will allow the experience to be more interactive ~ much like an online 3D RPG, but without all the mayhem and bloodshed. The 2D content is also being done in Flash format which will polish it up a bit. What you see is old and done before Flash was available.

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isis
04-01-2009, 06:36 PM
i like this and the music is good but what is with the flashy lights.. sorry but i got a head ack right now.


Well, thank you dear! Folks usually complain about my sound compositions more than the flashy lights. The flashy lights are "hypnoids". They work together with later content, most especially the qabalah and tatwa segments at this time, to induce visions.

There is much more beyond the dead ends that are MMO3DI. The flashy content in this 2D segment is balanced with the lighting and textures of the 3D segment to cause mild hallucinations. The 3D is down right now as I switch it over to different software engines which will allow the experience to be more interactive ~ much like an online 3D RPG, but without all the mayhem and bloodshed. The 2D content is also being done in Flash format which will polish it up a bit. What you see is old and done before Flash was available.

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COOL I WAS JEST ASKING I COULD FEEL THE ENERGY THAT WENT IN TO MAKING IT CANT WHAT TO SEE THE NEW ONE IF YOU DONT MIND. WELL I FEEL THE ENERGY CAUSE I A FEED OFF OF ENERGYS OF ALL KINDS, AND I FEED OFF OF BLOOD AS WELL BUT MOSTLY ENERGY. BTW I AM A HYBRID VAMPIRE NICE TO MEET YOU.

Odin
04-01-2009, 09:34 PM
This is the Last time I will say this, back on topic.

You are walking a thin line between a troll and a member, lighten up !!!

kimbal
04-01-2009, 10:40 PM
To me, the thought is absurd!! Demons were Gods of their own accord and existed way before the Christian religion started. Whether you believe it is just reversed or not, post your thoughts about the subject? I'm still kind of new here and I want to get to know the members more :)

Hi all;

NO - Satanism is not reverse Christianity. The two are polar opposites only up to a point. JOB chap[ter 1 in the Bible was recorded as a predeluvian event in the Asian area. Job was a worshipper of the Elder god / moon god Nanna-Sin, or Jehovah as we know today. The Sabeans who were satanists, worshipped a Devil long before Jesus arrived; took out their aggression against Job and killed his family in alliance with Satan's request to God to remove all he owned. In this matter Jehovah had to give satan the permission for the sabeans to strike at job, on the premise that his soul was not touched.

Christians call anything not in line with their terms as DEMONS. I am a demonic person because I won't worship God on the terms of a Chrisitian. ut them I won't worship ALLAH on Muslim's terms and in their mind I an a satanist, a follower of Eblis. All christians are satanist in the mind of a muslim, likewise all Muslims are satanists in the minds of a christian. So in reality it is all a matter of one's perspective as to what is termed a follower of Satan. In reality Jesus doesn't enter the picture. A true christian is a follower of CHRIST not GOD. Catholics are Christians and yet believe Jesus is God. A Jehovah's Witness though says Jesus and Jehovah are two separate personalities and it is JEHOVAH you must worship NOT Jesus. Yet they are also Christians in that they follow Jesus lifestyle.

The subject is complex because so many have distorted ideas over the centuries. Satamism being a reverse Christianity is really a corruptiuon of medievel Church teaching. The reality is far from this.

Strider
04-02-2009, 12:49 AM
There are a number of traditions that , over the past couple of decades or so, have made their teachings more openly availiable , and, although presently using the title "satanists" as a means to finally bannish the "magian ethos" that has distorted the West, are actualy based upon genuine Traditions pre dating Xtianity and rooted in what was, and which has been preserved as, the intended unfoldings of certain Sinister Spiritualities. This has maybe caused some confusion and a sometimes lazy generalisation on the nature of "satanism", especially by the media etc, but ones best way to understand a form has always been to live its essence, and that essence is - or one of them is - , of change via opposition, and the furtherence of mankind by "restoring to a society etc that which is missing" , to provide a means to progress further by first balance and then transition. Xtianity may no longer be the domminant force that it was but its offshoots and inspired Lawmakers definitely are, but, a revolt against this can not always be seen as the be all and end all of those doing the revolting (no puns, please! ). So, maybe the common appreciation of Satanism as flip christianity is valid for the mundane, but this is only ever a begginning and a means - if that means is needed - to break the indoctrination imposed upon them by reason of being raised within an environment that accepted such dualistic notions, which is a majority, but to fully explore and integrate an opposite is to eventually establish a more completed mind, one ready to be freed from such restrictions. So, this "blasphemous option" should not be sneered at as all tools are open as a means to evolve consciously, and, hopefully, owing to "as above so below" will move us as a species beyond the confines of this dying Age, as the individual and its associated civilisation are, in tandem, brought to this crucial point, by whatever means necessary!!

kimbal
04-02-2009, 01:29 AM
To me, the thought is absurd!! Demons were Gods of their own accord and existed way before the Christian religion started. Whether you believe it is just reversed or not, post your thoughts about the subject? I'm still kind of new here and I want to get to know the members more :)

Hi all;

NO - Satanism is not reverse Christianity. The two are polar opposites only up to a point. JOB chapter 1, in the Bible, was recorded as a predeluvian event in the Asian area. Job was a worshipper of the Elder god / moon god Nanna-Sin, or Jehovah as we know today. The Sabeans who were satanists, worshipped a Devil long before Jesus arrived; took out their aggression against Job and killed his family in alliance with Satan's request to God to remove all he owned. In this matter Jehovah had to give Satan the permission for the Sabeans to strike out at job, on the premise that his soul was not touched.

Christians today call anything not in line with their terms as DEMONIC. I am a demonic person because I won't worship God on their terms, that being a Chrisitian. But then I won't worship ALLAH on a Muslim's terms either and in their mind I an a Satanic, a follower of Eblis. Chrsitians are satanist as far as a Muslim in concerned and Muslims are satanist as far as Christians are concerned. Everyone is veiwed as SATANIC if they fail to "tow the line", on someone elses terms.

So in reality it is all a matter of one's perspective as to who is termed a follower of Satan. This is were the whole line of reasoning goes beyond the pale of common sense. In reality Jesus doesn't even enter the picture in this case. Muslims follow Mohammed not Jesus, so Satanism cannot be reverse christianity in lthe light of this reasoning. A true Christian is a follower of the teachings of CHRIST and a true Muslim is a follower of the teachings of Mohammed. Catholics are Christians and yet believe Jesus is God. A Jehovah's Witness though says Jesus and Jehovah are two separate personalities and it is JEHOVAH you must worship NOT Jesus. Yet they are also claim to be Christians in that they follow Jesus lifestyle.

The subject is complex because so many have distorted basic ideas over the centuries. Satanism being a reverse Christianity is really a corruption of medievel Church teaching - ONLY from ones Christian veiwpoint in western society. The true reality is far from this.

isis
04-02-2009, 02:08 AM
good we are back on the topic lest keep it that way or you know what will happen this energy on this thread is enoff for me to go crazzy so cool it eveyone.

cobra3
04-02-2009, 02:17 AM
There are a number of traditions that have, over the past couple of decades or so, made their teachings more openly availiable , that, although presently using the title "satanists" as a means to finally bannish the "magian ethos" that has distorted the West, are actualy based upon genuine Traditions pre dating Xtianity and rooted in what was, and which has been preserved as, the intended unfoldings of certain Sinister Spiritualities. This has maybe caused some confusion and a sometimes lazy generalisation on the nature of "satanism" especially by the media etc, but ones best way to understand a form has always been to live its essence, and that essence is - or one of them is - ,one of change via opposition, and the furtherence of mankind by "restoring to a society etc that which is missing" to provide a means to progress further by first balance and then transition. Xtianity may no longer be the domminant force that it was but its offshoots and inspired Lawmakers are, but a revolt against this can not always be seen as the be all and end all of those doing the revolting (no puns, please! ) So, maybe the common appreciation of Satanism as flip christianity is valid for the mundane, but this is only ever a begginning and a means - if that means is needed - to break the indoctrination imposed upon them by reason of being raised within an environment that accepted such dualistic notions, which is a majority, but to fully explore and integrate an opposite is to eventually establish a more completed mind, one ready to be freed from such restrictions. So this "blasphemous option" should not be sneered at as all tools are open as a means to evolve consciously, and, hopefully, "as above so below" will move us as a species beyond the confines of this dying Age, as the individual and its associated civilisation are, in tandem, brought to this crucial point, by whatever means necessary!!

How very erudite...and evasive. No, the stone cold fact is there is Satanism and a Satanic church. The question can only be applied to these objective social manifestations. The question is not, "If Satanism were other than what it is today, would it be the flip side of Christianity." Is it, in its present day social and cultural manifestation, a direct reaction to the very crudest interpretations of scripture? A resounding YES! As it exists today, it is not based on a Yezidic view nor a Judaic view that sees Lucifer as a servant of YHVH. It is based on the silly superstitions of fundamentalist rednecks. Right or wrong, it is a rebellion against the church. It would not exist in its present form if not for the church. This, in fact was a conscious aspect of Anton's conception. He meant to capitalize off of the angst of the times. He admitted openly that he did not even believe his own crap...that it was all part and parcel to hoodwinking the seething, religiously scarred gullible. He never hid the fact and many today can and do testify to that.

This whole notion of conflict between dark and light is dumb, at best. It is not qabalah. It is more like Rush Limbaugh politics. Being a one time sports caster and wanna be jock, he imagines the world political stage to be a sports event where one side must trounce the other. It amounts to a personal chronic fixation, not good cosmology. It is adolescent crap.


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I AM DELETEING YOUR PREVES POST BUT COOL IT.

Strider
04-02-2009, 02:23 AM
Every post has been "on topic" except for the majority of your own, what are you avoiding? The risk of being open to a possible alternative to your own shakled views?

cobra3
04-02-2009, 02:41 AM
Every post has been "on topic" except for the majority of your own, what are you avoiding? The risk of being open to a possible alternative to your own shakled views?

You should quote. It is not clear whom you are responding too. My posts, if you trace them from start to finish, are absolutely on topic until another comments on them requiring a response away from topic. If another goes off, I do follow, knowing full well restriction to be the worst of sins, but always return to the one true question you, yourself, have not yet addressed. The question is not, is Satanism, the way you wish it was, just the flip side of Christianity. The question is, as it REALLY is today is it? Now, you try just once answering it in that context.


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Strider
04-02-2009, 02:52 AM
"as it really is today" would depend on which "branch" of "satanism" you care to subscribe to. Myself i pursue a traditional veriety that has no business with Xtianity beyond the breaking of possible tabboos for certain members. I myself never had such problems and consider the christ strains to be irrelevant to the evolution of our races. To cling to such things is, ultimately, to cling to a dead horse.

cobra3
04-02-2009, 03:19 AM
"as it really is today" would depend on which "branch" of "satanism" you care to subscribe to. Myself i pursue a traditional veriety that has no business with Xtianity beyond the breaking of possible tabboos for certain members. I myself never had such problems and consider the christ strains to be irrelevant to the evolution of our races. To cling to such things is, ultimately, to cling to a dead horse.

Then you are NOT a Satanist my friend. There is a very serious flaw in things as you present them. The character, "Satan", does not even exist in Judaism. It does not exist in early Muslim (Yezidi). The character, "Satan", is distinctly Christian and is derived from, but does not resemble, Lucifer. How do you explain that? Lucifer is not seen as dark (it is comforting light) or in opposition in the early traditions. It is compliant, repentant, and serving. The rebellious one is a later creation of pagans who influenced the YHShVH mythos and got it all wrong. It is a misinterpretation of the Samech side of Shin that represents the oral tradition in the name, or holy formulation, and references certain hypnotic seductive methods used in YHShVH magick ~ or Christ magick.

That whole scenario where the devil tempts Christ by the precipice is a poorly concocted crock of ****. It might as well be a dumb rednecks take on quantum physics and denotes a very wrong characterization almost reverse form what is intended in the original.


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Strider
04-02-2009, 03:44 AM
Then you are NOT a Satanist my friend. There is a very serious flaw in things as you present them. The character, "Satan", does not even exist in Judaism. It does not exist in early Muslim (Yezidi). The character, "Satan", is distinctly Christian and is derived from, but does not resemble, Lucifer. How do you explain that? Lucifer is not seen as dark (it is comforting light) or in opposition in the early traditions. It is compliant, repentant, and serving. The rebellious one is a later creation of pagans who influenced the YHShVH mythos and got it all wrong. It is a misinterpretation of the Samech side of Shin that represents the oral tradition in the name, or holy formulation, and references certain hypnotic seductive methods used in YHShVH magick ~ or Christ magick.

That whole scenario where the devil tempts Christ by the precipice is a poorly concocted crock of ****. It might as well be a dumb rednecks take on quantum physics and denotes a very wrong characterization almost reverse form what is intended in the original.


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But i never claimed to be your "satan" merely presented it as a possible tool for for those who might need such things. This tool (sorry, cant seem to get that word out of my head for some reason) is vital for those who are still entering the process of psychological advancement and who, as i noted, still possess such "engrams" of this dead horse of an age. Does not matter if "satan" exists or not, it is belief and belief only that underpins most if not all magical traditions, the mechanics of which some would do well to learn. I wont discuss your constant referals to the desert plague for reasons i have already given, and i am surprised that someone as "advanced" as yourself would still be clinging to such a worm riddled crutch. My friend

Great American Desert
04-02-2009, 04:19 AM
"That whole scenario where the devil tempts Christ by the precipice is a poorly concocted crock of ****."

As much as the absurd concept of an ancient tradition of "Christ magick", which stands on the shakiest of grounds.

Strider, are you of the ONA?

Strider
04-02-2009, 04:50 AM
"That whole scenario where the devil tempts Christ by the precipice is a poorly concocted crock of ****."

As much as the absurd concept of an ancient tradition of "Christ magick", which stands on the shakiest of grounds.

Strider, are you of the ONA?

G A D, I consider myself "of the ona" in so far as i was initiated into a tradition rooted in their essential teachings by a "cell member" some years back, but nevertheless i claim my own way now as a unique expression of this and one which may or may not conform to publically available MSS old or new relating to this Way. I believe i have said more than was expected my friend.

Great American Desert
04-02-2009, 05:18 AM
G A D, I consider myself "of the ona" in so far as i was initiated into a tradition rooted in their essential teachings by a "cell member" some years back, but nevertheless i claim my own way now as a unique expression of this and one which may or may not conform to publically available MSS old or new relating to this Way. I believe i have said more than was expected my friend.

Well, if you conformed wholly to the ONA program, you wouldn't be much of a Satanist. Commended. Pick, choose, discard the rest - these are the proper steps for building one's path.
Note that I only asked for the sake of curiosity and conversation. I had no deeper motive in any direction.

cobra3
04-02-2009, 08:15 AM
But i never claimed to be your "satan" merely presented it as a possible tool for for those who might need such things. This tool (sorry, cant seem to get that word out of my head for some reason) is vital for those who are still entering the process of psychological advancement and who, as i noted, still possess such "engrams" of this dead horse of an age. Does not matter if "satan" exists or not, it is belief and belief only that underpins most if not all magical traditions, the mechanics of which some would do well to learn. I wont discuss your constant referals to the desert plague for reasons i have already given, and i am surprised that someone as "advanced" as yourself would still be clinging to such a worm riddled crutch. My friend


You are way off topic. You seem to be kind of losing it. Rambling. Go back to the initial question and read it again. Let it sink in. And then try to remember when addressing any response to me; I am Majian. That is to say, I am of the order Majik. We are somewhat like Chaote, but masters of the old ways first. It is a total waste of effort to attempt to fake it with a Majian. We can spot you coming and going. If you are interested in learning, we are more open than most, but it is futile to attempt to impress us with false pretense.

The question does not even begin to deal with “faith” nor “worship” nor the nature of “beliefs”. That should be another topic, and would be a good one. It concerns simple run-of-the-mill, everyday, Satanism, a construct of some twentieth century charlatans, one of the most noted of which was that idiot buffoon I knew. Satanism is as easy to quantify as Wicca because both are latter day fabrications.


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cobra3
04-02-2009, 08:19 AM
"That whole scenario where the devil tempts Christ by the precipice is a poorly concocted crock of ****."

As much as the absurd concept of an ancient tradition of "Christ magick", which stands on the shakiest of grounds.

Strider, are you of the ONA?


Now, who are we to believe? You or Gurdjief? Do any of you even know qabalah?


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cobra3
04-02-2009, 08:22 AM
G A D, I consider myself "of the ona" in so far as i was initiated into a tradition rooted in their essential teachings by a "cell member" some years back, but nevertheless i claim my own way now as a unique expression of this and one which may or may not conform to publically available MSS old or new relating to this Way. I believe i have said more than was expected my friend.


You are kids, aren't you? ONA could not be more off topic but does verify my contention. ONA does represent gay, lesbian, and bisexual individuals but ONLY in The United Church of Christ. It is decidedly Christian! Be careful what acronyms you fake.

There are two fundamental directions in chaos magick. Those who are legit, who are well versed in the old ways but then establish their own direction. Then there are the fools and adolescents who use it to shield there ignorance. It is very much like modern art. There was a recent headline news story about a toddler who won recognition in the art community for abstract work. It was, of course, found to be a hoax. Many who are not artist at all hide like cockroaches behind freeform. The greats like Picasso, Dali, and Warhol are masters first. They studied under masters and became certified masters. Their freeform is measured off from that very finely honed focus. The adolescent brand of chaos magic is entirely meaningless ~ other than for diagnostic purposes.

Shall we get back on topic?


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Lady Dunsany
04-02-2009, 10:30 AM
Those three artists were not masters, they happened to appeal to the deluded masses who were so stoned most of the time you could put a piece of crap on a piece of bread and they would believe it is art. Chaos is dying and will continue to do so, as there are so many pathetic souls out there that have taken what was once pure and bastardising it. The power is not in a sigil it is not in a tool it is within and can be tapped not only from the power within oneself but the power of the universe. I am sitting here and all you are doing is talking in a round about way and trying to prove you have a semblance of intelligence. You remind me of Jim from taxi, he tried desperately to get a point across but came out sounding as if he had marbles up his butt. If you really would like a intelligent conversation with the members here I suggest you actually start trying to instead of all the negative crap that is spewing from your mouth. I am starting to realize that you are the only one that likes to hear yourself speak. Cut the baiting of members and this staff because if you come back with your BS one more time then justice in the form a little red button will fall. Do I make myself clear? One more word.

isis
04-02-2009, 11:09 AM
You are kids, aren't you? ONA could not be more off topic but does verify my contention. ONA does represent gay, lesbian, and bisexual individuals but ONLY in The United Church of Christ. It is decidedly Christian! Be careful what acronyms you fake.

There are two fundamental directions in chaos magick. Those who are legit, who are well versed in the old ways but then establish their own direction. Then there are the fools and adolescents who use it to shield there ignorance. It is very much like modern art. There was a recent headline news story about a toddler who won recognition in the art community for abstract work. It was, of course, found to be a hoax. Many who are not artist at all hide like cockroaches behind freeform. The greats like Picasso, Dali, and Warhol are masters first. They studied under masters and became certified masters. Their freeform is measured off from that very finely honed focus. The adolescent brand of chaos magic is entirely meaningless ~ other than for diagnostic purposes.

Shall we get back on topic?


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you are still walking on thin ice i and i will still personally do it my self what i told you last night i would do now cool it now and shut your pie hole.

cobra3
04-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Those three artists were not masters, they happened to appeal to the deluded masses who were so stoned most of the time you could put a piece of crap on a piece of bread and they would believe it is art. Chaos is dying and will continue to do so, as there are so many pathetic souls out there that have taken what was once pure and bastardising it. The power is not in a sigil it is not in a tool it is within and can be tapped not only from the power within oneself but the power of the universe. I am sitting here and all you are doing is talking in a round about way and trying to prove you have a semblance of intelligence. You remind me of Jim from taxi, he tried desperately to get a point across but came out sounding as if he had marbles up his butt. If you really would like a intelligent conversation with the members here I suggest you actually start trying to instead of all the negative crap that is spewing from your mouth. I am starting to realize that you are the only one that likes to hear yourself speak. Cut the baiting of members and this staff because if you come back with your BS one more time then justice in the form a little red button will fall. Do I make myself clear? One more word.

Whether one is master or not is never determined by a viewers taste, more especially the taste of one that doesn’t know magick from their anus nor can even manage any art form, let alone master. It is determined by how they are trained and they must be certified. All three were certified by previous masters after studying under masters for many years according to a tradition that is well over a thousand years old. Just as I am trained in RC, GD, OTO, AA, and THELEMA before I rebelled. You folks are so obvious it is SAD. Not one of you has a clue. And some of you ARE only one and sock puppets.


CLICK TO PASS
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

cobra3
04-02-2009, 01:44 PM
you are still walking on thin ice i and i will still personally do it my self what i told you last night i would do now cool it now and shut your pie hole.

Isis, you are giving away your secret identity, dumb ass! What exactly did you say you would do? Are you going to ban me? When I am posting on this board, I am posting on many. This is the saddest of the bunch. There is no traffic here. The board, itself is lame. I build these boards and give them away. The new 3D boards are awesome and, thus far, I control the technology. Ban me, stupid. You have nothing to offer here. It should have been obvious by now that I just visit these boards to look for those interested in upgrading their board into an actual 3D REALM with avatars. I offer this service for free, and it is about to transform the internet. Why would any visit your sad little board if they could choose to meet and hold counsel in elaborate ancient Persian chambers or in Druid caverns in virtual astral planes? You turkeys are a sad little bunch pretending to know rather than bothering to learn…with those who actually KNOW what they are talking about.


CLICK TO PASS
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

cobra3
04-02-2009, 01:54 PM
Those three artists were not masters, they happened to appeal to the deluded masses who were so stoned most of the time you could put a piece of crap on a piece of bread and they would believe it is art. Chaos is dying and will continue to do so, as there are so many pathetic souls out there that have taken what was once pure and bastardising it. The power is not in a sigil it is not in a tool it is within and can be tapped not only from the power within oneself but the power of the universe. I am sitting here and all you are doing is talking in a round about way and trying to prove you have a semblance of intelligence. You remind me of Jim from taxi, he tried desperately to get a point across but came out sounding as if he had marbles up his butt. If you really would like a intelligent conversation with the members here I suggest you actually start trying to instead of all the negative crap that is spewing from your mouth. I am starting to realize that you are the only one that likes to hear yourself speak. Cut the baiting of members and this staff because if you come back with your BS one more time then justice in the form a little red button will fall. Do I make myself clear? One more word.


You make the mistake of assuming I am chaote. To a rational person, it is clear that I am criticizing chaos magic, not condoning it. Any can say it is within. Most charlatans do. All who are legitimate know qabalah in some form, be it Theosophic, Druidic, Judaic, Hiramic, Arabic, Egyptian, or Dark. Do you? I know all of them. Magick may DEAL with what is within, but it IS the mastering of the occult membrane between what is within and without to gain full control of both.


CLICK TO PASS
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

isis
04-02-2009, 03:55 PM
ok mother fucker you are gone good bye

Lady Dunsany
04-02-2009, 04:09 PM
Isis, you are giving away your secret identity, dumb ass! What exactly did you say you would do? Are you going to ban me? When I am posting on this board, I am posting on many. This is the saddest of the bunch. There is no traffic here. The board, itself is lame. I build these boards and give them away. The new 3D boards are awesome and, thus far, I control the technology. Ban me, stupid. You have nothing to offer here. It should have been obvious by now that I just visit these boards to look for those interested in upgrading their board into an actual 3D REALM with avatars. I offer this service for free, and it is about to transform the internet. Why would any visit your sad little board if they could choose to meet and hold counsel in elaborate ancient Persian chambers or in Druid caverns in virtual astral planes? You turkeys are a sad little bunch pretending to know rather than bothering to learn…with those who actually KNOW what they are talking about.


CLICK TO PASS
THROUGH THE COBRA'S EYE (http://epiphany3.com)

My are you a bitter little gas bag. I would not have your little Harry Potter 3D board if you greased it up with liquid gold. Good bye Spanky.

Lady Dunsany
04-02-2009, 07:58 PM
ok mother fucker you are gone good bye

I did not see this. I just got an email, I guess my mods banned the little gnome. I am always the last to know. Sigh. I thought it was a darn good discussion. Normally I do not advocate four letter words but in this case it is apropos. Oh well carry on.

Goth_Queen
04-05-2009, 04:20 PM
WOW.....looks like I kinda stirred up some trouble here!

isis
04-05-2009, 04:31 PM
no goth_queen it was not you at all cober3 was the on who did the stirring he thought it would be fun to put everyone down even odin..

but it is a good thread.. thank you for posting it.

Odin
04-05-2009, 04:41 PM
No not at all is got out of hand with cobra 3 not even discussing but going everywhere from how people wrote, context to calling people Arse"s

Strider
04-05-2009, 04:58 PM
WOW.....looks like I kinda stirred up some trouble here!

Ha ha, not always a bad thing though eh, generally speaking? :D

StarlessAeon
04-08-2009, 04:28 AM
"Do you think Satanism is just reverse Christianity?"

No. Satanic principles just happen to be the opposite of Christian principles. Or more appropriately, beyond concepts of good and evil.

It would still exist with or without Christianity. Satanic magic is something beyond being merely "anti-Christian".

Most Atheists and Muslims, for example, are anti-Christian as well, that does not make them Satanists.

Wulzirik
04-15-2009, 02:19 PM
Wulzirik: in Christianity, Satan's temptations were independent of God's will, versus the Jewish view that God permitted Satan to test the faith of God's followers...a prosecutor. And I don't want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, but Satanism is a path...a mindset and belief system. One can not be a Christian and a Satanist at the same time.

Sorry about replying to such an old post, but, with all due respect, you need to research what you're talking about a little more. Christianity accepts the Book of Job as valid, and, in it, Satan is clearly expressed the same as the Jewish view. Indeed, medieval Christianity thought of Satan not as a menace, but as God's punisher of the wicked.

Also, your view on Christianity and Satanism relies on a very narrow, dogmatic understanding of the whole deal. Look at the Hindu belief that all gods are facets of one divine force, Brahman. If one accepts that as true, then one can, in theory, be both a Satanist and a Christian, honoring both the figure Satan and Christ. Many Gnostics also are both Christians and Satanists, believing Christ to be the son of Lucifer.

And as for cobra3... wow, that's either one dumb kid or one epic troll.

Great American Desert
04-15-2009, 07:28 PM
Sorry about replying to such an old post, but, with all due respect, you need to research what you're talking about a little more. Christianity accepts the Book of Job as valid, and, in it, Satan is clearly expressed the same as the Jewish view. Indeed, medieval Christianity thought of Satan not as a menace, but as God's punisher of the wicked.

Also, your view on Christianity and Satanism relies on a very narrow, dogmatic understanding of the whole deal. Look at the Hindu belief that all gods are facets of one divine force, Brahman. If one accepts that as true, then one can, in theory, be both a Satanist and a Christian, honoring both the figure Satan and Christ. Many Gnostics also are both Christians and Satanists, believing Christ to be the son of Lucifer.

And as for cobra3... wow, that's either one dumb kid or one epic troll.

Perhaps it is you who must research a bit further. Christians do accept the book of Job, as they accept the whole of the Old Testament. But this is not the foundation of the nature of Satan in the eyes of the Christians. In Christianity, Satan is, and has been seen as a fallen angel. He was the enemy of God, not merely an agent employed to tempt. Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, not as an agent of God, but as an act of disdain toward God. So let me reiterate - the Jewish view Satan as a prosecutor working for God, and the Christians view Satan as an independently evil character, an angel fallen from grace by his rebellious nature.

My understanding of Christianity is broader than you're suggesting. Of course I'm presenting the orthodox dogmatic view, because that IS CHRISTIANITY. Christianity is an establishment, and it is this establishment that represents the spirituality of the Western world since Europe fell into its icy grip. Whatever non-orthodox, apocryphal or personal type of Christianity to which you'd like to lay claim, this is immaterial to the subject at hand. So just because you're offended that somebody corrected your nonsensical statement that one can simultaneously be a Christian and a Satanist, this does not mean you can make an assumption about one's expertise. I had an orthodox, literal-biblical Christian upbringing, and began to pursue the esoteric truths in my early teen years. Approaching twenty-eight years, and having studied the many apocryphal forms of Christianity - Gnosticism particularly - I would say that I'm versed enough in the rubbish faith that is Christianity to make an absolute statement regarding the inherent conflict between Christianity and Satanism. Any fool can fit a square peg into a round hole with a big enough hammer, and your justifications for your stance are such a hammer.

There is no historical Gnosticism that saw Christ as the child of Lucifer in a manner so explicit as you describe. There are paths that saw him as the spawn, or incarnation, of Sophia perhaps, or even an emanation or Aeon in his own right. Historical Gnostics did not view themselves as Satanists; this is a modern perspective. And truly, the closest one gets to this in the ancient world is the Ophites, but even they would not have seen themselves as Satanists.

You can say what you will about my narrow view of these subjects, but I will not budge in my stance that only a bullshit artist could make sense of Satanic Christianity.

Wulzirik
04-15-2009, 07:46 PM
I had an orthodox, literal-biblical Christian upbringing, and began to pursue the esoteric truths in my early teen years.

This seems to be why you're so hell-bent on knocking down Christianity for no apparent reason. Typical random rebellious teenage years, resulting in holier-than-thou assclownery in adulthood.

I also have a Christian background, fairly religious Roman Catholics. We were always taught that it was all part of God's divine plan. Maybe your fundie Protestant family thought differently, but this just goes to show that some forms of Christianity have different views from others. (This isn't to say I now support Catholicism, by the way. Catholicism has its good points, but it's ultimately a flawed, ultra-dogmatic church.)

Now, note that most Christians teach some garbage about a "final battle" with Satan (which stems from interpreting Revelations literally), but most I've met also believe God intended for Satan to fall. Why? To test the wicked. The Bible clearly states this in numerous places, even in the New Testament. I don't want to sound like some nutty Bible-thumper here, because that's about as far from what I am as you can get, but Romans 9: "Pharaoh was owned by God. And God used Pharaoh for His glory."

Edit: By the way, calling me a bullshit artist? That's just low. I have my beliefs, which stem from a combination of personal experience, religious texts (Bible included), and religious tradition. Yours, on the other hand, seem to stem from ditching one form of pointless dogma and entering another. "All the gods are facets of one god" has always been a valid stance, and is seen in multiple religions in the world, Hinduism being the big one. And, hell, if you want to get down to religious comparisons, Krishna is an awful lot like Christ, while Shiva is an awful lot like Lucifer. But guess what? Both are considered "the good guy" in Hinduism. They're enemies, but are both facets of one being.

Great American Desert
04-15-2009, 09:17 PM
This seems to be why you're so hell-bent on knocking down Christianity for no apparent reason. Typical random rebellious teenage years, resulting in holier-than-thou assclownery in adulthood.

I also have a Christian background, fairly religious Roman Catholics. We were always taught that it was all part of God's divine plan. Maybe your fundie Protestant family thought differently, but this just goes to show that some forms of Christianity have different views from others. (This isn't to say I now support Catholicism, by the way. Catholicism has its good points, but it's ultimately a flawed, ultra-dogmatic church.)

Now, note that most Christians teach some garbage about a "final battle" with Satan (which stems from interpreting Revelations literally), but most I've met also believe God intended for Satan to fall. Why? To test the wicked. The Bible clearly states this in numerous places, even in the New Testament. I don't want to sound like some nutty Bible-thumper here, because that's about as far from what I am as you can get, but Romans 9: "Pharaoh was owned by God. And God used Pharaoh for His glory."

Edit: By the way, calling me a bullshit artist? That's just low. I have my beliefs, which stem from a combination of personal experience, religious texts (Bible included), and religious tradition. Yours, on the other hand, seem to stem from ditching one form of pointless dogma and entering another. "All the gods are facets of one god" has always been a valid stance, and is seen in multiple religions in the world, Hinduism being the big one. And, hell, if you want to get down to religious comparisons, Krishna is an awful lot like Christ, while Shiva is an awful lot like Lucifer. But guess what? Both are considered "the good guy" in Hinduism. They're enemies, but are both facets of one being.

I didn't say that I had a strict upbringing, which is typically the catalyst for teenage rebellion. In fact, it was a pretty liberal atmosphere. I was referencing the literal-biblical beliefs to illustrate merely the view of the divine that I had in my childhood. Teen rebellion was never really my thing; it was always a sincere curiosity that propelled my path, and still does. So once again, you've missed the mark by a degree or two.

Judaism is the stem of all Abrahamic faiths. It is the parent religion. Christianity, including its many countless subsects, derive from Jewish thought, as does Islam. These two latter religions incorporate influences that were not necessarily originally found in Judaism, but they are essentially Jewish. Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah - these are varied names for the same Demiurge. And as such, I take neither Judaism nor Christianity seriously at all. This is why I call Christianity rubbish. I don't hate Christians, I just give them no divine credence. Even if a character called Jesus ever existed, the evidence of which is highly dubious at best, his rise to fame was a matter of chance. Some messiahs are remembered, some are forgotten. This messiah just happened to fill a void, and the rest is history. I would continue on and on about Islam, but Islam is irrelevant. It is neither a force nor a significant influence in this part of the world, so it would be something of a waste to ramble on about it. But at least Mohammed was verifiably real and was able to mobilize masses and make some real changes in his lifetime...

Throwing in mixing bowl elements into one world view, incorporating Abrahamic deities with Hindu cosmology, is typical new-age. It's not earth shattering, and it's not a key to the reality of God. It is insightful and food for thought, but in observing that all gods are part of one god (Brahman), that renders you, quite frankly, neither a Christian nor a Satanist, but a Hindu! Yes, I know a thing or two about Hinduism as well...enough to know that the Hindu monism is incompatible with true Abrahamic values. From the beginning, the Hebrews stressed distinction between themselves and the Gentiles, and between their god and the false gods of their neighbors. This is the root of Christianity, and it is a trait to which the religion still clings. I know that this conversation isn't about the merits of Christianity, I just felt the need to clarify why I say the things that I do.


It's very shaky ground, trying to prove a point by citing contrasting philosophies. If it were true that both Jesus and Satan were facets of the same god, who was in turn one of the many facets of one ultimate GOD, this is still no reconciliation for Christianity and Satanism. If that stood as good enough evidence, then this logic could be applied to reconcile Hitler with the Jews, or peace with violence. After all, if we're all basically the same on a genetic level, then Hitler's acts against the Jews were little more than illusion - because Hitler and the Jews are just facets of the human race, and it doesn't really matter in the end what we do to one another.

You've decided upon your belief system by adding a dash of this, a dollop of that, until you've found a recipe to your taste. And that's fine. We all do that who can think independently. But in so doing, you will have to concede that if you want to claim Satanism and Christianity under the banner of Hindu monist philosophy, then you are not a usable example of either.

I take some exception to being told that my religion is a like-for-like exchange of pointless dogmas, because the dogma I espouse is really quite meaningful, and many others have found it meaningful as well. The living seed thrives in fertile soil.

I am of the belief that there is one true God, a Most High and unknowable God that is at once all that exists, and separate from all that exists. From this God emanate Aeons, masculine and feminine. And from these Aeons come further, lesser emanations, including Yahweh, divinity corrupted, and from the Demiurge comes the corrupted material creation. At least superficially (I'm not digging too deep into your manifesto), our ideas of the divine are at peace with one another. Perhaps the difference is I'm realistic instead of loose with my terminology.

Regardless, what further need have we in this? I'm too jaded these days to settle for anything less than agree-to-disagree.

chronazon
04-15-2009, 10:42 PM
sometimes you have to go against the social order, which is very much shaped by fundamentalist impositional christianity, to even exist.
I don't think satanists can just get off on how isolated we are in the universe and invoke chaos to gain power in an isolated place you have taken to be chaos because you were hypnotized by a nature scene in america that reminded you of how barren some places are. Its just that satanism is definitly theistic. There should be no room for aethism and confused people. All this is still fine, but the highest point of faith comes when you realize that although eart hhas much to improve, we are stranded here, there is an afterlife and they know all that goes on, but theistic satanism is like spiteing a creator god you know knows earth is messed up because of that and just hating it, and everything that happens.. I don't see hopw else you could even believe. I believe that bad humans take the form of devils, and just get in the way. there is someone stupidly evil who is stupid I must repeat that set up the status quo.
should we worship the godhead of stupidity, f*** no...satan is lord of earth. The Pope would say probably that satan is the lord of earth but we must work to improve it in every way. It might be more than a common saying amongst witches...

where then does justice reign amongst devils in a rotting world, still appearing perfect to those who possess the seal of earth?

One thing Ford says that I like is that the children of the nazerene are not of you. If fundamentalism and the history of persecution of those who practice spiritual science didn't exist, why spiritual science is ignored by the science establishment, then would such lines need to be drawn? This is why absence of fundamentalism can be a great thing, such as in the presbetyrian faith, who live by that standard .
think about how much is imposed from public health policy and socially imposed standards and then think sure the guy was christuian but was he an idiot? sure. but not all christians are idiots, given they don't follow blindly when it comes to social interaction, imposing it on people, and these things having nothing to do with the bible or god. Red books, like when christ speaks, are books of passion, emotion, love and the people as opposed to blue books of knowledge like the Qahballah, a work of spiritual science. this shouldn't be confused with the morals and ethics commission that exists alongside a money think tank when the republiklan party is no more. And no I don't feel guilty calling it that because of the current landscape. Thats what they were founded in and I don't think anything else will exist for that party until they realize they have been brainwashed by belief parasites. beliefs are differant from faith and are like ram knowledge. they are water and necessary for life to form, where instincts come from, the ram of precognitave knowledge.
the MEC might make tv commercials (why sell products? everyones so sick of that it kills people just watching them) and put up ads with taxpayer money to remind people of the facts of life, things that might slip by people missing real culture...even white people in america should be reminded of euro culture and how they used to live, but this more on the content side of tV and movies. I would like to see more meaningful ethnic stuff for everyone. and not dictating how people should live and enforcing it, but with the commercials just reminding people of life in a direct manner rather than have it hidden in metaphor in an art work

Wulzirik
04-15-2009, 11:30 PM
If that stood as good enough evidence, then this logic could be applied to reconcile Hitler with the Jews, or peace with violence. After all, if we're all basically the same on a genetic level, then Hitler's acts against the Jews were little more than illusion - because Hitler and the Jews are just facets of the human race, and it doesn't really matter in the end what we do to one another.

If you want to consider me a Hindu, that's fine. I'd say I'm "all and none of the above," but whatever. Hinduism is cool.

I just had to comment on this, though. Breaking Godwin's Law in a discussion on Satanism. Wow, I'm impressed. It's funny how you compare two divine essences to human beings. I'm a firm believer in morality, right and wrong, as I define it. My sense of morality doesn't mesh with conventional modern-day morality, either. I'd say Hitler was wrong, but the Allies were also wrong (bombing Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, throwing Polish refugees into the arms of the Soviet tyranny, etc.). But I really fail to see what the actions of human beings in World War II has to do with divine beings. On the divine realm, noone is really right or wrong, it just is. It's a logical fallacy to try and apply that to our realm, here and now.

Great American Desert
04-16-2009, 12:58 AM
It's a logical fallacy to try and apply that to our realm, here and now.

Forgive me...in looking at your example, I thought logical fallacy was fair game.

You can use a screwdriver for many things, though not always very efficiently. But sometimes the screwdriver shines...when something needs screwed.
Of course Hitler is an exhausted tool, but sometimes it's the best illustration. This is particularly true in the case that one wishes to convey an extreme polar point. In the common schema, it is Hitler vs. Jews, just as it is God vs. Satan. Why could I not draw these comparisons? Why are not divine enemies paralleled in the mundane world? It's no less logical to assume that all people are ultimately one, and that all people are part of God, if we are already assuming that all gods are one God and that the whole of being is God. No? Hitler eats the Jews; God eats Hitler; Brahman eats God and Brahman gets carried away on the turtle's back.

Something that can not be forgotten in the world of the esoteric: if we are willing to embrace the ridiculous, prepare to embrace it all.

As much as I hate to admit this, morality is relative. I'd like for there to be universal laws of respect that were unbreakable, but this is not the case. There is so much corruption (evidently a common theme here) in the world, human and non, that pays absolutely no heed to what you or I think is right or wrong. The fact is, the world is gray. The world is what you make of it. In that respect, there is no difference between our world and the world of the divine.

chronazon
04-16-2009, 05:15 AM
the milky way is the moon/ring system of the entire universe, with earth as the actual center of this moon system of the rest of the living universe. it is a place where microorganisms exist and people die and feel pain. I think that is unnatural. we all could have existed before and still. somewhere else

Frank N. Stein
04-25-2009, 08:26 PM
the milky way is the moon/ring system of the entire universe, with earth as the actual center of this moon system of the rest of the living universe. it is a place where microorganisms exist and people die and feel pain. I think that is unnatural. we all could have existed before and still. somewhere else
Don't forget that Black Hole ;)

I was brought up a Roman Catholic, as a child I has visions of fire descending upon me and trance states in church. Now I have the same trances with meditations on Satan and other Gods. I don't think there's a whole lot of difference, only putting a label upon it. It doesn't matter if it's "reverse Christianity" because I don't belive in Jesus any more. It's all about what you get out of it. If someone feels insulted if you apply the label "reverse Christianity" it's his or her fault. No need to be touchy about that. That's the same as Christians who are insulted if you tell em "God is dead". Who cares what anybody thinks about you? That would be lifting them up to your plane: They don't deserve that.

I don't hate Christians, I only think Satanism is a separate path, bringing together all the best of Wicca, Crowley, the O.T.O. and other sources to a deep dark place of transformation - the source of all Live, Leviathan, which is kundalini in your own soul. Melting down material from the finest magicians into a true and dark belief system--the system of ecstasy, the Satanic Path!

Yezidis and the cult of Kali predated Christianity by hundreds of years and existed in a world where "Christ" wasn't known at all. The dark angel, Moloch, was worshipped before Jesus. So this phenomenon is OLDER than Christianity.
It can take the forms of mocking christian traditions like abusing hosts and crosses, but you see even that means that Christian beliefs don't matter at all :)

ShinobiBombay
05-08-2009, 09:30 PM
Ok. My turn.
Satan is the dude that puts our butts in check. Period. He is like the accusing attorney. Scrupulous honesty. Even though he has been called the father of lies. The only thing that keeps him in check is absolute truth.
He can be your best friend or your worst enemy. It depends on how "honest" you are.
Loki, Pan, Set, Coyote,... all of these forms,... they have the same function. They will trick you, or seem to. But, they allow you to trick yourself. You can have all the rope you want. Just don't hang yourself with it. You are not punished for your sins. You are punished BY your sins.
It is really very simple and logical.
That is my opinion.

xxloveboundxx
05-10-2009, 04:04 AM
Ok. My turn.
Satan is the dude that puts our butts in check. Period. He is like the accusing attorney. Scrupulous honesty. Even though he has been called the father of lies. The only thing that keeps him in check is absolute truth.
He can be your best friend or your worst enemy. It depends on how "honest" you are.
Loki, Pan, Set, Coyote,... all of these forms,... they have the same function. They will trick you, or seem to. But, they allow you to trick yourself. You can have all the rope you want. Just don't hang yourself with it. You are not punished for your sins. You are punished BY your sins.
It is really very simple and logical.
That is my opinion.

yes he has been called the father of lies but in my opinion he is a safe haven for those who are persecuted by the christians who go to an extent to condemn the unlucky to an spiritually damned hell so to speak, he isnt like the accusing attorney in other words. Loki, set and all the forms you speak of are all the classic tricksters of the Earth, but the only way to be their worst enemies is to trick them by using them for your own selfish gain. But i dont believe satanism is just reverse christianity; that is what it have been condemned to be thought of, as with the anti-cross it is just a symbol it has no meaning but it does hold a sertian extent of power, as with the pentagram.

007m
07-24-2009, 07:24 PM
I do not believe in the Christian God or Satan that is depicted in the bible. I do believe in a divine higher power that is the force in the Universe that we as a collective whole created. Satan to me is a name that was made up to keep the masses in line. Demons I believe just the lower part of us that we have created. Angels to me were always here, and some where some how they made themselves known throughout the thoughts of humans. The Angels to me are not under a deity they are here on their own, as I said in our collective consciousness we created them as all were created. This may sound arrogant but it is not meant to be. It is just my beliefs, I can not speak for anyone else.
After many thoughts on this life, I came to this conclusion too.
Every human beeing has it's own energy.In time, people started to belive in a comun divinity, and the energy has been concetrated. In thousand years, this energy reached a great power ammount.
But I think we know almost nothing about Gods, Christian God, Satan, the real Science of life and the human purpose.
If we want, they can be reverse, if we don't they won't.
It all depends on us.

s.gal83
08-07-2009, 07:48 AM
Most of the theistic Satanists are not reverse christians. There are some forms of theistic Satanism that can be said to be reversed christians. These people worship the Satan of the bible. The only difference is that they believe Satan and the anti-Christ will win the last wars.

One and Only...
08-17-2009, 07:59 PM
I don't think each branch is reverse Christian, but it is anti-Christian, and that is the more relevant point.

A lot of Satanic practices strikes me a particularly aggressive form of shamanic practice embedded within Western iconography. Not something I'd want to get involved in.

John
08-24-2009, 07:01 PM
state your belief ?

satanictemple
04-15-2010, 09:35 PM
To me, the thought is absurd!! Demons were Gods of their own accord and existed way before the Christian religion started. Whether you believe it is just reversed or not, post your thoughts about the subject? I'm still kind of new here and I want to get to know the members more :)

Good question. There are varieties of Satanism, just like there are varieties of nearly every existing religion. One variety of Satanism is "reverse Christianity," and I do not hesitate to label myself as a theistic, "reverse Christian" Satanist. I take the Hebrew-Christian scriptures very literally, and worship Lord Satan as the adversary, the light-bearer, opposed to the oppressive Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus.

Hail Satan!

Goth_Queen
04-18-2010, 07:19 PM
Hail Satan!

Strider
04-19-2010, 02:21 PM
Good question. There are varieties of Satanism, just like there are varieties of nearly every existing religion. One variety of Satanism is "reverse Christianity," and I do not hesitate to label myself as a theistic, "reverse Christian" Satanist. I take the Hebrew-Christian scriptures very literally, and worship Lord Satan as the adversary, the light-bearer, opposed to the oppressive Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus.

Hail Satan!

I dont personaly see simple opposition as being the answer, for if you state that you are This, but not That are you not reliant upon your opposite to exist as a This at all? For example, when the maggot riddled mess of Xtianity finaly does die for good, leaving humanity to get on with catching up for its mistakes, where does that leave you? With no opposite left to define your beleifs, would you not become the new standard bearer of your own opposer? After all, no one else would give two shits about some dusty old book of rules, or the mumblings of some half remembered Jewish hippy.
Just an opinion.
:D

satanictemple
04-19-2010, 02:25 PM
I dont personaly see simple opposition as being the answer, for if you state that you are This, but not That are you not reliant upon your opposite to exist as a This at all? For example, when the maggot riddled mess of Xtianity finaly does die for good, leaving humanity to get on with catching up for its mistakes, where does that leave you? With no opposite left to define your beleifs, would you not become the new standard bearer of your own opposer? After all, no one else would give two shits about some dusty old book of rules, or the mumblings of some half remembered Jewish hippy.
Just an opinion.
:D

Interesting take, and I confess that my worship of Satan is precisely dependent on His opposition to Yahweh. Otherwise, I would see no point. There are two main deities in opposition, Yahweh and Satan, and I side with Satan. Hail Satan!

grim789
04-19-2010, 04:28 PM
There were older and much more wiser civilizations back way before the christ era that had many diffrent deitys. Demons are servants of those more higher deitys just as angels are. Satanism is not meant to worship the devil in the christian sence but the devil refers to opossition the dark side of human nature satanism is the fact of embracing life as it is and not worrying about sin all the time it embraces the dark side if you will of human nature so infact it is a great religion.

Strider
04-19-2010, 05:22 PM
There were older and much more wiser civilizations back way before the christ era that had many diffrent deitys. Demons are servants of those more higher deitys just as angels are. Satanism is not meant to worship the devil in the christian sence but the devil refers to opossition the dark side of human nature satanism is the fact of embracing life as it is and not worrying about sin all the time it embraces the dark side if you will of human nature so infact it is a great religion.

Yup. Though to take things even further away from duality, could it not be that Satan/"the dark side" etc are actualy all there is - beyond the almost microscopic perception that humanity possesses of Cosmos, as we tend to abstract prior to a fuller understanding? ie, there is no right/wrong good/bad or black/white beyond human perception - which is what we should be aiming for to understand such "entities" as they are?
Sorry for nit-picking, just my 2 cents...again :D

grim789
04-19-2010, 06:04 PM
We as humans view the world based on our individual perception of good and bad. What one person views as bad someone else may not so the devil and god are just the good and bad of human nature that is all of us. Plus you got to think that deitys of higher realms don't see things the way we as humans do there is no black and white there is gray they are not concerned with problems in this world. Just a little more input there:cool:

Justinfh
06-13-2010, 11:58 PM
It depends. To me, if you believe in and worship the Satan that's in the bible, then you're a reverse Christian. But if you wanna call yourself a Satanist, then go ahead. If you believe that Satan is something else, then you're not a reverse Christian.

devakxes
06-14-2010, 01:40 AM
Satanism is a lot of reverse everything depending on the particular kind of satanism you end up studying.

Reverse christianity... not necessarily but to an extent yes. A lot of different kinds of Satanism acknowledge Satan and God as concepts/symbols. They more or less worship themselves normally.

seastorm
10-10-2010, 05:01 AM
Historically speaking, the demons of one culture are the gods of the one preceding it. Within Christianity the examples are obvious, Ashtaroth, Baal, even Lucifer are, as it probably known to mosst of you, dieties of pre-christian civilizations. Christianity is not the only perpetrator, however. There has been quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the Fir Bolg and Formorians of Irish myth were gods to the Pre-celtic inhabitants of the island. The reverse definitions of the terms daeva and ashura in hindu and persian mythology (in ancient persia a Daeva was a demon and an Ashura was a god. In india it is the other way around) are likely due to ancient conflict between the two societies. The trickster spirit Loki is also believed to be a fire diety worshipped by pre-germanic inhabitants of norway. When one culture dominates or wipes out another, it is old hat to demonize their gods. So, in a way one could see certain forms of thiestic satanism as reverse christianity and certain attention getting derivitives of the religion certainly make it seem this way. However, many practicers of both thiestic satanism and other forms of demonolatry are not necessarily even aknowladging christianity but are rather indulging in the worship of pre-christian dieties that have since been demonized by the dominant paradigm. Luciferianism is an example of this. In many ways the discussion is moot. Most satanists do not worship Satan at all and engage in a rational and self-empowering belief system independent from religious thought. As for those that do, whether they are worshipping a pre-christian god or a demon in the christian sense, does it really matter? All religions require one to believe in something that a purely rational mind would reject out of hand. Is it really any person's place to say that one system of religious belief is crazier than another?

Goth_Queen
11-27-2010, 05:42 AM
Interesting take, and I confess that my worship of Satan is precisely dependent on His opposition to Yahweh. Otherwise, I would see no point. There are two main deities in opposition, Yahweh and Satan, and I side with Satan. Hail Satan!

So, the only reason to you for worshipping Satan is to go against God? Thats such a waste of time!! You could be directing your energy to Satan, not wasting it on a false God. Your not a theistic Satanist, just a reverse christian in my opinion. Theistics generally believe that He is the driving force, the Chaos, that started this world and just like the Oroborous snake (represents the Big Band/Cosmos), the Chaos will someday "crunch" and we'll go back to Satan...something like that. Basically that He is the Creator and the bible is a waste of time and Book of Lies. But, do whatever you want.

I-S-O-N
12-08-2010, 09:03 PM
If the actually society raises upon a deity, and learn to go against it, most likely the future will be atheist, not a God-worshipper of any genres.

Do you view atheism as the ideal?

It is difficult to be an atheist if one worship's the idea of being an atheist as some sort of God.

That is just contradictory.

DawnWolf
12-09-2010, 01:47 AM
Okay this is were things get crazy, there is a God, and a Devil both have there realm both work in different ways there is a jesus he did die for your sins but its not as cut and dry as that, nature and the elements God made and worshiping the devil is not the way to go, unless you want to burn, worship the pure green energy

Light
12-09-2010, 08:20 PM
The problem is,Dawnwolf,that people will always do what they think is right.You can try to tell others what to do,but then we all have free will.I have had people call me all sorts of names before and had them tell me that i'm going to hell,but i don't chose to let them drag me down.Ultimately,this is how i look at things:my own beliefs do not define who i am,who i am defines my beliefs.To put it a better way:"true freedom is not measured in laws,but in how comfortable you are with who you are."I came up with that one early morning,but it does describe my view rather well.I applaud you for voicing your opinon,though.If you couldn't do so comfortably,you wouldn't be truly free.


Beautifully put.

Thank you Darius. :)

EtuMalku
12-10-2010, 03:20 PM
Okay this is were things get crazy, there is a God, and a Devil both have there realm both work in different ways there is a jesus he did die for your sins but its not as cut and dry as that, nature and the elements God made and worshiping the devil is not the way to go, unless you want to burn, worship the pure green energy

There isn't a God (by which I assume you mean the Abrahamic god). Neither is there a devil. As for Yeshua the Nazarene (Jesus) there is absolutely no evidence that this person ever existed.

What most people refer to as a Divine Creator (god) is in actuality the natural ordering of the Universe personified.

God, gods, devils, angels, demons, etc. are all ancient archetypal imagery deeply embedded within our unconsciousness, they are brought to our consciousness through the tools of Symbology.


Worshiping a Horned God (devil) is a purely Pagan path that dates back to Indo-European Man. Burning in a fictitious, Milton-esque Hell is another one of Judeo-Christian's attempts at controlling it's sheeple.

I-S-O-N
12-11-2010, 08:18 AM
Do you find your self sometimes rallying against those who do not share the same belief (or in this case lack of) as you?

I am not saying this to irritate you, but hopefully to prove a point. I just notice militant atheists tend to treat their views in a similar manner often seen in those they often criticize.

Light
12-11-2010, 07:40 PM
hmm...evil?
What one sees as evil, another one sees, as not evil.
A very subjective concept.
Some see good and evil, as the the same thing, just the opposite of each other (polarity).

I-S-O-N
12-12-2010, 06:56 PM
No, I don't find myself rallying against people who think in diverse manner than me. I'm just evil.


If the actually society raises upon a deity, and learn to go against it, most likely the future will be atheist, not a God-worshipper of any genres.

With all due respect, I have difficulty believing you. It just seems that human nature needs something, any thing to worship and something to rally against. Seeing I am human just as well, I realize I am not exempt from this and this is why I choose to believe in something, instead of nothing. I found out when I try to deny my nature and its needs, it ends up causing all sorts of trouble. I rather try to be in harmony with myself then be against my self.

Tryptaminescape
12-12-2010, 10:08 PM
Good and Evil, Right and Wrong are both subjective and can change from person to person based on a myriad of reasons, hardly existent outside of your own mind. Positive and Negative are objective and a bit more obvious. It's much clearer what is creative an overall positive or negative effect to our world/universe than it is to describe what an overall good or evil would be, since it would be subject to change.

Satanism by name is a reverse to Christianity. It doesn't matter what the philosophy says and how separate an entity Satanism is, with Christianity being the world's largest organized religion and Satanism as a collective term being formed after Christianity was a collective term, then by it's name, Satanism is a response, an answer, or a reverse of Christianity. I'm well aware of the origins of Satan, the origin of the word Satan, but there was never in documented history a collective organization to be called a path or religion using that name until after the establishment of the anti-Satan Christianity.

Ziggy_wolf
12-13-2010, 09:46 AM
Most religions originally were intended to be good, but however people have perverted and twisted them to their own ends. As when the conquistadores killed indians, justifying that they would save their souls from sin.
Slaugther in the name of Christ. Therefore I deeply detest any form of organized religion or any system of government that allows few to have power over many.


While not a Satanist my self, I symphatise with many of it weivs.
Except the notion that the weak shal perish or be swept aside.
Quite often something weak can be made strong, and we cannot truly know the potential power that a person might unlock.

Few christians I have met practice the "do on to others"

I see philosophical Satanism as a celebration of the so called sinns
Many of of the worlds major religions speak of denying or taking controll of our desires. One must have controll of theese desires lest they controll you offcourse, but to abolish them alltogether is foolish. I beleive this to be the cause of much much unnessesary suffering and psychologogical trauma. Furthermore slight diferent interpetstions of major religions have caused most of the major conflicts in the world. I ask what other creature denies its own instincts, denies its own nature, stribes to remove itself from and conquer that wich it is self evedently a part of. Therefore man is the most corupt creature there is. A man who aknowledges his own instincts and desires, and the fact that he is nothing more than an evolved animal stays more true to what he truly is. All creatures seek to satesfy their desires, to bring balance, equallubrium and harmony in to their lives. Without this life would be a series of meeningless tasks, that yeild no selfsatisfaction, no goals to reach for, no motivation to continue ones existance.

Tryptaminescape
12-13-2010, 06:10 PM
Most religions originally were intended to be good, but however people have perverted and twisted them to their own ends. As when the conquistadores killed indians, justifying that they would save their souls from sin.
Slaugther in the name of Christ. Therefore I deeply detest any form of organized religion or any system of government that allows few to have power over many...

I agree with this. I don't think anyone can truly call themselves enlightened or pretend to be something divine until they've been able to transcend the boundaries that labeling oneself to a certain path, dogma, religion, government, or even just another person puts on them. We have the ability to do what no other animal can do, and yet we still prefer to roam in herds, weary of the other herds we see as threats. Not very human at all.


...fact that he is nothing more than an evolved animal stays more true to what he truly is.

We are a bit more than just an evolved animal, if for no other reason we have the capacity to band together to protect and save other animals on a scale no other animal can (of course, we don't, because we're lost and blind). I agree with what I think you meant, though. We're not above any other creature, including other humans. Organizing and labeling is only an inevitable step to controlling and overpowering those outside of your label. On a whole, that is. Obviously not every person who falls under a label is that way, but we haven't really got many good examples of a religion that hasn't eventually just became a hungry void that swallows those in need who happen across it.

Light
12-13-2010, 09:33 PM
There is quite a marked difference between animals and humans. Us humans have something called a frontal cortex. Therefore we are capable of much more complex understanding of our environment, on the intellectual plane.
How we use this part of our brain, is really up to us. The more we use it, the more it gets trained and active.
However, some choose not to use it actively , challange it, etc. Therefore that part of the brain will be less active. So there is a difference I believe, with people and people..

There is a saying that I believe is true, when and if people wake up, from their slumber, when religion, principles (illusions) in life will be stripped off, attachments to others, etc.

'It is often when the greatest shocks and traumas are inflicted, when the exterior and ego built ‘selves’ are stripped away that the true power source, the core of life is revealed as it really is'.

This I believe is many times unfortunately what happens before people wake up.

I-S-O-N
12-14-2010, 04:47 AM
I-S-O-N, you are a believer. I'm not a God worshipper, because I, for what you might think, I don't need to believe in deities. Everyday, I just don't care. I've my troubles, my needs, but all without God.



For me, evil and good is not inside us, but outside us. A beautiful person is for the most part of people. A horrible person is the same. I refer to the physical aspects.
I am not a believer. By acknowledging my human nature and feeding my emotional needs, I end up not believing or the need to believe isn't as strong. View the need to believe in something as a stomach that finally gets fed after starving for a month.

I know sounds contradictory, but I am also of the view human nature (and behavior) is contradicting as a default and many do not realize while they knowingly believe in one thing, they unknowingly act in ways that are the exact opposite of that belief. But it sounds like you managed to get such a thing under control, so I won't say any more about it.


Most religions originally were intended to be good, but however people have perverted and twisted them to their own ends.
I agree with this. It just seems the few try to be good and everyone else screw things up.

devakxes
12-15-2010, 02:35 AM
My only dislike of Theistic Satanism is the view of atoning one's Will to the Prince of Darkness which in my opinion is a direct insult to his being, since he gave us free-will and now instead of going to the God of slaves we go to the ''being'' who gave us a Mind and ask to be his slaves instead.

If anything I view there is many deities and forces, different cultures have come in contact with these forces/principles and personified them. By anthropomorphizing them they not only gained connection and power with those forces but also added onto the deity(force/principle) with their own cultural symbolism and religious goals. I am not sure why people desire to go and label The Prince of Darkness as creator, although I do like him in the concept of Khepera or Xeper-I-Set.

''I became and thus the becoming became, I became by becoming like Khepera, the God of Transformations, who became in the first time.''

It is the idea of the god of the dawn breaking free. If Set broke free from the universal womb and existed solely as a separate entity - he would have to go and give identity to all things in order to preserve his own unless the universe become a mirror reflection and he becomes lost in the dream.

Besides the story of Tiamat and The Ancient Ones there is no parallel to any ''evil'' being creating reality that is pagan (unless you speak of the Yatus who worshiped the Daevas and Ahriman).


There is quite a marked difference between animals and humans. Us humans have something called a frontal cortex. Therefore we are capable of much more complex understanding of our environment, on the intellectual plane.
How we use this part of our brain, is really up to us. The more we use it, the more it gets trained and active.
However, some choose not to use it actively , challange it, etc. Therefore that part of the brain will be less active. So there is a difference I believe, with people and people..

There is a saying that I believe is true, when and if people wake up, from their slumber, when religion, principles (illusions) in life will be stripped off, attachments to others, etc.

'It is often when the greatest shocks and traumas are inflicted, when the exterior and ego built ‘selves’ are stripped away that the true power source, the core of life is revealed as it really is'.

This I believe is many times unfortunately what happens before people wake up

So beautifully put, Light. :D

I think all forms of Satanism are basically the anti-thesis to all religions. In my opinion it is the reverse of Christianity but it is also the reverse of hinduism, buddhism, and many other disciplines. The self is exalted as a God and developed. In my opinion the morality of satanism also is of benefit (particularly lavey satanism's philosophical ideas) considering that it all benefits the Self as well as allows one to allow others to do what thou will.

But even the beauty of Satanism has been twisted to evil ends by people. Most of those people blame Satan as an external reason for why they did their crimes. Really, in my opinion, these people are just trying to escape from responsibility.

The True Satanist knows that they are in control of their life, they are their own sole creator of their own master plan - and thus realizes that if they cheat or harm others it will have the natural consequences of causing others not to trust or like you.

To me, everyone has Light and Darkness in them. I believe morality stems from an awareness of what is pleasureable and what is painful. A system created so that the cultures that created these moralities could function as a whole to their own environments. However, I think it goes deeper on a psychological level and it goes to what they determine to be good (the fulfillment of one's Will) and what they determine to be bad (that which causes pain). All for Vanity. We all have the desire to create as well as to destroy. To give life as well as to take it. The Satanist/Luciferian sees both sides and uses it for progress - creating new systems of thought and technology that either enhance human life or kill it with atom bombs. They could destroy rain forests or destroy bacteria and viral disease with new technologies. Man knows Good and Evil and to say otherwise is to degrade us to the level of animals. Even Jesus was moved by Lucifer in that he challenged the old testament with his formula of Agape.

In my luciferianism, the person experiences Hell (the desire to attain the goal) and once they achieve the goal reaches Heaven (self-satisfaction and a sort of rest... the self is exalted but if one stays in self-satisfaction for too long they can stagnate and decay). This brings forth the desire to be greater and do greater things - the luciferian fall back into hell in order to overcome more obstacles and attain greater pleasures. Here lies a secret of not only refining the self but making the Self immortal.

I-S-O-N sounds like a Chaos Magician.:)

Light
12-15-2010, 02:46 AM
Thank you devakxes, exquisitly put once again. :)

I-S-O-N
12-21-2010, 10:15 PM
I-S-O-N sounds like a Chaos Magician.

I am trying to be one. The question is, did I pick it or did it pick me? One of the drawings I seen in Liber Null was something I have been seeing in my dreams for weeks.

As of right now, I am trying to decondition myself according to Peter Carrol's advice in Liber Null by trying to become Christian.

devakxes
03-29-2011, 03:01 PM
He didn't necessarily say you had to become christian, you just have to become monotheistic, polytheistic, atheist, and nihilist.
Switching between these is radical.

So you could make ''The Prince of Darkness'' the sole focus, and then all other demons and gods to be manifestations of Him or (if you want the paradigm shift to be more radical) just false creations of the human mind.

Aradia
03-31-2011, 11:53 AM
I do not believe in God nor in Satan so to me it is futile in it's enormity. When you think about it everything is reversed.

I agree 110%.

just me
04-04-2011, 03:36 PM
I like how description you get when you reply Great American Desert. But I want more detail. I would think that the complete reverse of Christianity would require the opposites of their core belief structure:

Christianity:
• God – triune, able to create and destroy, all loving, jealous, forgiving
• Jesus – son of God and man, died to forgive all sin
• Faith – a gift from God, like a gift humans may reject it, but have no power over receiving it
• Life after death – heaven (eternal perfection) or hell (eternal torture)

The Complete opposite would be:
• God – doesn't exist
• Jesus – a man who did nothing or did not exist
• Faith – earned or personally achieved
• Life after death – there is none

The final question would be: is there a faith that fits the complete opposite?

GaianGuy
05-20-2011, 09:05 AM
Interesting discussion.
This is my first posting, and yes I did target this thread specifically.

I think that everyone should be free to define themselves in any way they wish. Whatever you wish to call yourself, however you wish to define your personal path, that's your right.

I would like to respectfully suggest however, that everyone should examine the terminology they have chosen for themselves & give it some careful thought. I will use Great American Desert's posting to illustrate what I'm saying.

GAD said; "That aside, and to the point of the thread, I believe that Satanism is reverse Christianity for almost everybody, at least at the beginning of their path".

Are you sure the idea you want to communicate is best expressed as "reverse"? Here's a common definition of reverse; "Going in or turned toward the direction opposite to that previously stated, i.e., backwards"

If someone practised "reverse-christianity", wouldn't that mean they do/practise the direct opposite of what Christians claim to practise? Wouldn't that mean, for example, living out a reversed Ten Commandments in your daily life?

Wouldn't that mean dishonouring (whatever that means) your parents on a daily basis? What if your parents were also self-described Satanists?
Wouldn't that mean committing murder from time to time, or at least constantly seeking an opportunity to do so?
Wouldn't that mean stealing whatever you can, whenever you can, from anyone & everyone you know?
Wouldn't that mean "bearing false witness" about everyone around you, to everyone else around you?

Wouldn't all this make you an intolerable menace, even to other Satanists?

What about the seven deadly sins? Those would become seven life-giving virtues, right? You'd actively cultivate practise on a daily basis;
- seeing everyone you meet as a sex partner? What about minors?
- striving to become obesely overweight?
- putting the acquisition of goods ahead of everthing else, including changing your religious/spiritual beliefs if offered enough money?
- always seeing yourself as a loser in comparison to others?
- never doing any work or bothering to get anything done?

GAD said; " See, Satanism is at its core a religion against a religion"
"But it could be argued that theirs is a true reverse Christianity, since the starkest contrast to belief is disbelief - so not only have they adopted the symbols that are painful to Christ, but they have also reversed belief itself into disbelief...a true reverse Christianity"

Is it possible that the word "anti" might better describe what you mean, here?
"an·ti/ˈanˌtī/
Noun: A person opposed to a particular policy, activity, or idea"

Are you really defining Satanism as ANTI-christianity?

Tor Johnson-Lugosi
05-21-2011, 12:48 AM
You have a lot of intriguing points here. Have you read NIETZCHE'S THE ANTICHRIST (http://fringe.davesource.com/Fringe/Religion/Nietzsche-The-Anti-Christ/)and if so how do you think it applies herein?

S0urceror
05-21-2011, 03:15 AM
If you told me that was the kind of Satanism you are into I would beware of you. I'm pretty sure it can mean that, though, if you want it to.

I think Satanists tend to be concerned with demonized virtues, rather than anti-virtues.

Tor Johnson-Lugosi
05-22-2011, 02:23 AM
I'm not "into Satanism" by any means; I just thought it would be a point of interest regarding "reverse Christianity" - Nietzche being such an influential philosopher et al... :eek:

GaianGuy
05-22-2011, 03:56 AM
Tor Johnson-Lugosi said: "Have you read NIETZCHE'S THE ANTICHRIST and if so how do you think it applies herein?"
That's a HUGE question, in so few words, Tor.

When I and my friends read the first accounts of supposed Satanic Ritual Abuse victimization, way back in the 1980s, we knew right away that the "victims" stories must be false. We knew that, because the beliefs & practices of the "satanic cult" described by the alleged victims, was an exact match for the mythical "satanism" that we labelled "reverse-christianity". (We were studying Comparative Religions & Mythology).
Everyone ought to understand exactly what these alleged SRA victims claimed those beliefs & practices to be, so I will quote a summary from satanic panic promoter and psychiatrist Dr Colin Ross (DISCLAIMER - what follows is NOT MY OPINION of any persons who self-describe as "satanist"), from "Satanic ritual abuse: principles of treatment" (pg.32):
"“The Satanic rituals...are the mirror opposite of repressive Christianity; the Christian devours the spiritual body of Christ, the Satanist eats his victim's heart, the Christian has an upright cross, the Satanist has an inverted one; the Christian is washed in the Blood of the Lamb, the satanist in the Blood of the Goat; the Christian Priest is celibate, the Satanist is a pedophile; the Christian reads the Bile, the Satanist defecates on it. The Satanist does literally what the Christian does, in a disguised form: the Christian drinks wine that represents the Blood of Christ, the Satanist drinks actual blood; the Christian god was nailed on the cross, the Satanist ties his victim to the altar, and so on".

As you can see from the above, this concept of "satanism" has very little to do with opposing or working against Christian doctrines as they are acted out in our society by Christian communities, Christian leaders/clerics or Christian churches. This concept of "satanism" is all about acting out blasphemous parodies, or reversals, of what a pious Christian is supposed to do. This "reversed-christianity" is the concept that most people in our society had of satanism before The Church of Satan came along, it is the concept most people had of satanism while Anton LeVay was living, and despite a lot of hard work by many people - it remains the dominant concept of satanism in our culture today.

Despite extensive investigations over 10 or so years, this Reverse-Christianity Satanic Cult described by alleged SRA victims, could not be found. Even the FBI couldn't find valid evidence that it existed. No one could find it, because it is only a mythical concept. It has only ever manifested in the form of solitary deranged individuals, or short-lived, small, criminal groups. There are very good reasons for this - as demonstrated in my previous posting, persons who attempt to live out a literal reversal of Christian (or any other major religion) beliefs & practices, would be so rabidly anti-social that they could not work together co-operatively for more than brief periods. They certainly could not run an organization so efficient, and so efficiently secretive, that not even the FBI could find any trace of them. They would be a menace to everyone, including each other, and would be purged from their society either legally or by vigilantism within a short time of "forming up".

There is also the problem of the utter pointlessness of spending all your time acting out reversals of Christian practices. It accomplishes nothing, so why would anyone dedicate their lives to doing it? Satanic Panic promoters tried to explain this by referring to the ancient Judeo-Christian myth about people who "hate God". The mythical god-haters supposedly hate Christ-Jehovah so intensely that they are motivated to spend all their time acting out blasphemous mockery of Christian or Jewish morals, values and practices - supposedly believing that such mockery actually injures that Diety. Another explanation was, because they hate Christ-Jehovah so intensely and Christ-Jehovah is the essence of "good", they "identify with evil" and act that out by reverse-christianity satan worship.
Supposed SRA victims claimed that the members of this satanic cult actually professed to perceive themselves as "evil people doing evil things in service to an evil diety".

There are several problems with these ideas. To begin with, although there have been and continue to be many people who hate individual Christians, or entire sects of Christians, or specific Christian doctrines and the way those doctrines are acted out in their society, most of those people couldn't be bothered wasting their time hating Christ-Jehovah personally. Most anti-Christians don't believe Christ-Jehovah exists at all - why bother hating a mythical or fictional character?

In "The Anti-Christ", NIETZCHE typifies the real attitudes of many Christianity haters. He doesn't hate Christ-Jehovah, he doesn't believe such an entity exists. He doesn't despise "God", he despises the "religion of pity", the worship of weakness, that he perceives Christianity to be. Although he does advocate values & practices that are the antithesis of what he perceives to be Christian values & practices, he isn't advocating reversal as parody or mockery enacted out of hatred - he advocates positive, constructive enactment capable of bringing about real change in the real world. The same is true of two other famous anti-Christians; Aleister Crowley and Madame Blavatsky.

GaianGuy
05-22-2011, 10:34 AM
@Tor - I'm not into practicing satanism , but I'm interested in studying the history of ideas about satanism & how and why people self-describe as Satanists.

The concept of multigenerational religious communities/organizations composed of Satanists who perceive themselves to be "evil people doing evil things in service to an evil deity" is VERY problematic. It is utter nonsense, frankly.
To begin with, believing oneself to be "an evil person" is contradictory to fundamental aspects of the human psyche. Schizophrenics, psychotics or suicidal depressives might genuinely perceive themselves to be an evil being, while in their delusional state. Psychologically healthy persons whose ideas, attitudes or behaviour violates social norms and might be labelled "evil" by conformists in their religious community or culture, invariably develop rationalizations through which they define those conformists and their standards as "evil", "mistaken", "stupid", "barbaric", "ignorant", "old-fashioned", "brainwashed" etc., and define themselves as; more advanced or intelligent, better educated, having superior insight, a heroic innovator, a free-thinker etc., and ultimately as the genuinely "righteous" person.

This tendency is greatly amplified by membership in a community of persons with similarly transgressive ideas, attitudes or behaviour. Religious communities whose beliefs or practices are considered heretical, immoral, or "evil" by neighboring or surrounding communities develop theologies, mythologies or philosophies through which they perceive themselves as righteous and their detractors as "the evil ones". No community of Satanists, not even one that practiced "reverse christianity", would believe themselves to be evil people doing evil things.

David Finkelhor is a child abuse expert who allowed himself to be exploited by Satanic Panic promoters. He participated in a "study" of alleged daycare sex crime cases which was intended to demonstrate that there really was "satanic ritual abuse" in at least some of the cases. In his conclusion, he stated the opinion that at least 13% of the cases he studied were "genuine":
"After studying the ritualistic allegations we decided that they needed to be subdivided into three categories: 1) true cult-based ritualism, where the abuse was in service to a larger spiritual or social objective, 2) psuedo-ritualism, where the goal was primarily sexual gratification, with ritual being used only to intimidate children against disclosing, and 3) psychological ritualism, where the activities were primarily the expression of an individual's obsessional or delusional system".

Unfortunately for Finkelhor and other Satanic Panic promoters, his #1 - "true cult-based ritualism, where the abuse was in service to a larger spiritual or social objective", is entirely mythical. There are theories of sexual magic, with sexual acts performed in the context of a ritual, but the participants absolutely have to be willing or there could not be any "magical" results. I won't go into detail here, but the anti-occult crowd have never understood sex magic and they never will. Their fantasies of rape in a ritual setting producing some kind of "antinomian" or transgressive "energies" are exactly that - pornographic fantasies that only make sense to outsiders with superficial knowledge and ulterior motivations for wanting the public to believe in such a thing.

It is true that transgressive behaviour - violating social norms - can produce a cheap high, by triggering the stress-response system to release a flood of Catecholamine hormones & neurotransmitters; adrenalin, dopamine, epinephrine & norepinephrine. But, like any other means of triggering the catecholamines, (such as smoking tobacco, crack or methamphetamine), acclimatization is inevitable. Each time a specific event triggers the stress-response system, the response will be a little more muted, eventually losing the capacity to produce any high whatsoever.

This fantasy about satanic cult abuse - that exposing small children to the most horrific, traumatizing experiences, like witnessing or participating in rape, murder and cannibalism in a ritual setting would produce fanatically loyal cult zealots driven to reproduce those experiences over & over - is one of the stupidest fantasies I've ever encountered. The most likely result would be to produce totally non-functional schizophrenics & psychotics, incapable of benefiting the cult in any way. Certainly, a child exposed to such experiences even on an occaisional basis would quickly acclimatize - becoming emotionally numbed to such experiences, and would be unlikely to derive any "thrills" from them as an adult.

GaianGuy
05-23-2011, 09:51 PM
@Fatalist - I don't believe that I said anything about "absolute evil" or "objectively evil". If you inferred that I was talking about those concept, then you mistook my meaning.

It is certainly possible for a psychologically healthy person to believe that they have made mistakes, or that they have done something "wrong", or "bad", from their own perspective. It would be very unusual, however, if they were to conclude from this that they were an evil person and adopt that idea as the core of their self-perception.

As for insufficient or parasitic identity...
Perhaps you mean something like this; person A defines himself as "not a Christian" and that negative is the sole basis of his identity. If there were no Christians, he would he no identity at all. Any positive, (not positive as in "good", positive contrasted to the negative "not a -" ), concepts of himself are derived from the negative, i.e., it has to be something that being "not a Christian" means to him. He could only see himself as a loving person if he perceived Christians to be unloving persons. Is that the idea?

This would be a manifestation of Borderline Personality Disorder, wherein a person fails to develop a complete, stable sense of Self. Such a person is then reliant on something external for their self-identity. Usually, that external would be another persons's expectations of them, i.e. "Mother expects me to get good grades, that must mean I am a good student" - producing a self-identity of "I am a good student".

Such a person would not be "psychologically healthy", and I did state psychologically healthy as a precondition to my conclusions, in the preceding rants.

zero
05-23-2011, 11:42 PM
are there really people like that Ifind it hard to believe they would be blinded by such idea's i mean to do something just because its the opposite is nuts now if it goes against ones belief or ideals thats another story. have you ever met people like that?

i think satanism started out as shock value and defience, but grew into something more i am assuming here out of its still in existance.

great posts guys i look foward to reading more of them.

GaianGuy
05-24-2011, 01:55 AM
are there really people like that Ifind it hard to believe they would be blinded by such idea's i mean to do something just because its the opposite is nuts now if it goes against ones belief or ideals thats another story. have you ever met people like that?

If you are referring to genuine, literal reverse-christianity satanists, no I haven't. My point was, such persons are a mythical concept. They couldn't exist for anyone to meet them, because their behaviour would sabotage their own capacity for survival. It is important to understand, however, that many millions of conservative Christians around the globe (and some non-christians as well) believe that literal reverse-christianity satanists - who would "do something just because it is the opposite" - have existed in the past, might exist today and are likely to exist in the future.

It's easy for them to believe this, because they never examine the concept and its ramifications in any depth. They have a vague idea that people confessed to being exactly that in the past, under torture by inquisitors or freely of their own volition. It never occurs to them that inquisitors only had to solicit very superficial (and scripted) accounts of how these people supposedly lived and what they did, that they never had to ask the hard questions, such as - "If you've been killing people just because The Lord forbade you to, saying Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder, then why haven't you and the other members of your coven murdered each other? What difference would it make who you killed?"

Literal reverse-christianity satanists also make sense to many conservative Christians and Jews, because of the judeo-christian myth about God-haters. In this myth, the God-hater is a previously pious Christian or Jew who experiences terrible tragedy, such as the death of their spouse and children from disease or accident. The previously pious person blames Jehovah or Christ for their loss and suffering, grows to hate their diety and ends up devoting the rest of their life to worshipping Satan and acting out a reversal of everything the diety commands believers to do or not to do, simply out of spite.

This leads me to the last aspect of literal reverse-christianity satanism that I haven't yet discussed: to be one, you'd really have to be a Christian or a Jew.
I don't mean, you'd have to have once been a Christian or a Jew - I mean you'd have to still be a believing Christian or Jew. There just wouldn't be any point to living your life in that manner, if you didn't believe that Jehovah or Christ-Jehovah was God, and therefore you are supposed to obey their commandments and live your life in accordance with their teachings. What would be the point to violating their commandments & teachings, if you didn't believe that they really do apply to you.

zero
05-24-2011, 06:07 AM
I agree there can not be anyone/anything completely anything thats left to essences. balance is necessary just like in nature else it shall consume and in this even something good can be a bad thing.

GaianGuy
05-26-2011, 04:16 AM
@Fatalist - I had no intention of accusing you personally of being delusional. I know nothing about you and couldn't possibly make such a judgement. If you felt that was my intent, then I apologize for the confusion.

In this thread, at this time, I am simply saying that it would be unusual for a psychologically healthy person to believe that they are "an evil person", and that I don't believe it is possible for any religious or spiritual community to believe that they are "evil people doing evil things" by their own standards.

I think that, when it comes to self-concept, many people's perceptions about themselves are likely to be more complex that simple polarity: "either A or B"
For many people, the possibilities are likely to seem more like: "A or 'not A', B or 'not B', both A & B, or neither A nor B".

GaianGuy
05-27-2011, 01:48 AM
@fatalist - I'm agreeable to discussing these subjects with you, with some caveats that probably don't need to be voiced (but I will articulate them anyway, out of politeness).

It might be a good idea to create a new topic thread for our discussion. You are probably familiar with the internet forum protocol about 'staying on topic'. I think we may already be stretching the boundaries of this thread. If you wished to refer back to discussions in this thread, from a new one, that would be acceptable to me & to protocol I would think.

I might not be the right person for you to have these discussions with. I have an impression that exploring/ discussing Hermeticism et al, in an occult context, is a relatively new experience for you? Am I wrong?
It is a very old experience for me. The prime of my exploration and discussion of philosophical/ religious-spiritual/ metaphysical/ occult-magickal/ whatever topics was in my youth, many decades ago. In a sense, I "got over" my fascination with the words, the word-games, the mind-games, many decades ago. You may find me disappointingly uninterested in intellectual sparring, or even in defending any 'position' I might appear to postulate. I'm quite familiar with all the concepts you've raised, but I feel no allegiance to them, I don't worship them, I'm not enslaved to them.

You said: "Just as you argue that a genuinely evil person is a mythical concept..."
It wasn't my intent, to express an opinion on whether "genuinely evil persons" are mythical or not. From my perspective, Adolph Hitler, Jerry Falwell and Strom Thurmond were all genuinely evil persons - but I accept the subjectivity of this opinion and I absolutely do not think that any of those 3 persons believed themselves to be "an evil person". I have argued that a specific concept - that of: literal reverse-christianity satanists who believe themselves to be "evil persons doing evil things" - is a myth.

"...it can be also argued that a “psychologically healthy” person is a mythical concept as well". Sure. I don't disagree with that. If I were to offer a definition of "psychologically healthy", I might say something like: "a person whose functionality is unimpeded by psychological/psychiatric disorders that appear in the DSM" - but we could debate the meaning & reality of each term within that also; "functional", "unimpeded", "disorder", or even "person".

I agree with what I perceive you to be saying about the universality of stress-events.
I might choose the term "traumatic". I think that life is inherently traumatizing, especially for infants, toddlers and young children. I know some people who insist that abuse is basis of all childhood trauma, but I disagree. I think the process of individuation itself is inherently traumatizing for children, regards of how benevolently they may be treated by their caregivers.

As for polarity, choice, etc. From an abstract perspective, there is of course validity to such concepts, which permeate hermetic/ kabbalistic/ magickal philosophies - postulate The All, contract it to a monad - being everything, it cannot have identity & perhaps not even self-awareness. Split into a duad, each half comprehends itself by what it is not - yet this is illusory, since opposites contain each other - and so on.

What I can tell you is, that I experience free agency. I experience it every day, and every moment of every day. I am aware of logical constructs which "prove" that freedom is impossible, merely illusory - nevertheless my experience validates my perception that my Will is free, day after day after day...

GaianGuy
05-28-2011, 11:22 AM
Not my wish to 'tell' you to do anything, just offering an observation that we were both wandering away from the thread topic and suggesting a solution by way of a new one.

Fatalist said: "I appreciate your concern that we should stick to Satanism and Christianity per se and not boil the topic down to some abstract argument" - yes, you intuited my concern quite precisely.

Fatalist said: "...what I perceive to be a logical fallacy in your reasoning: where you go from self-concept of an individual Satanist to argue against the concept of a multigenerational religious community/organization of Satanists who perceive themselves as evil by their own standard".

I'll be honest - I had some difficulty following what you were saying, in regard to that. I'm interested in understanding what you have to say about it, however...could you express your point in a more casual manner? (You can pretend that I'm a child, or barely literate, if that helps. I won't be offended, I invest very little ego in my forum persona)
If that doesn't work, for you...oh well, my loss.

Fatalist said: "I am now under the impression that the purpose of this thread is not to reach some form of agreement or understanding on the topic inasmuch as for Satanists or other sympathizers to come and vex their personal opinions and experiences on the issues surrounding the phenomena and history of this thread’s topic".

That was pretty much my impression also, when I came into it. I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the responses to my postings in this thread, including your own responses.

Forgive me - if I sounded boorishly cynical about, or dismissive of, hermetic-philosophical concepts & logical constructs derived therefrom.
I have no reason to believe that you yourself 'worship' such things or are enslaved by them, and I wasn't accusing you of that - but I have met so many persons during the course of my life who did worship and were enslaved by, one or another "school of thought", (and who very much wanted to recruit me as another worshipful slave for their cause), that I've developed kind of a defensive disinterest in debating the merit of any of them, I guess. I still enjoy discussing them, I'm just wary of being cast as & trapped in the role of, either an advocate or a devil's advocate for any philosophy or school of thought.

Adder
06-12-2011, 02:43 AM
Wow, hard thread to follow :) I'd definatly say some people try to worship the Christian devil. Whether they worship evil depends on their interpretation of what Satan's role is. If its meant to be the reverse, then perhaps they make God to be the evil one.... otherwise if they believe Satan to be evil then it is in line with Christianity and not reversed. IMO anyone who worships and promotes the advancement of evil is fooling themselves as to what evil is, or has a mental problem.

Asin
06-16-2011, 09:53 PM
The mainstream 'Satanism' came along after Christianity. Those who turn from an Abrahamic religion to Satan because their patriarchal God 'abandoned' them (if It was even there in the first place).

I have seen something about ancient Indian worship of a Lucifer-like entity. How would you call that Satanism if the basic 'good and evil' system of Christianity wasn't intact yet? Satanism spawned from ex-Christians. It started as theistic (reversing the roles of Satan and God) and has now branched into philosophical as well (LaVeyan).

While theistic Satanism is reverse Christianity, LaVeyan Satanism is not. Yes, LaVeyan Satanism blasphemes Christianity, but no deity is involved. Opposition to 'sin' as the carnal instinct of the human animal is not simply reverse Christianity. It has a different angle and runs with it.

GaianGuy
06-20-2011, 07:00 AM
This is why I had trouble agreeing with you when you mentioned that there can't be a multi-generational group of people who can be seen as "evil". Because, you start out talking about a self-concept and move on to a social-constuct (treating it the same?). But maybe I should have asked you first on your opinion on how you look at the idea of a social-construct.

Thank you for your efforts at clarification.

I think the confusion is my fault. It was my intent to say, that a multi-generational group of persons who perceive themselves to be "evil people doing evil things" is so extremely improbable (for all the reasons I have given) that the concept of such a group seems ridiculous - impossible even.

I wouldn't say that there couldn't be multi-generational groups of people who could be seen to be/perceived to be "evil" by others in their society. There is the Bush family, for example... :)

GaianGuy
06-20-2011, 07:06 AM
While theistic Satanism is reverse Christianity, LaVeyan Satanism is not.

I'd like to encourage you, to explore the implications of the first part of this statement in greater depth. "theistic Satanism" is "reverse Christianity"?
Literally, "reverse"? Are you certain that is what you mean to say?

GaianGuy
06-20-2011, 07:23 AM
If its meant to be the reverse, then perhaps they make God to be the evil one.... otherwise if they believe Satan to be evil then it is in line with Christianity and not reversed.

Yes. Interesting paradox, eh?

Kind of implies that a "satanist" who perceives themself to be an evil person doing evil things in service to an evil diety must actually be a Christian (or perhaps a Jew). Don't you think?