sticky??!!!

[Ambrose]

What, a begginer's section of the forum, and no sticky?Something like a faq?
I propose to start something similar and I have some questions of my own.
How do you deal with the fact that, being borned and rised is a particular religion, some symbols have a negative significance for you, despite the fact that you learned lately that it means something else?Like the pentagram?Or the demons?
And are the gods that appear in so many rituals real for you?Or are they parts of your being that you bring forth, charging them with energy of thought and emotion and linking them to particular characteristics?If the later, why does the ritual talk about respecting/revering them?If they are parts of your being (subconstious mind?) than, how could they posibly become upset?

[S33k3R]

I suspect that the answers to those questions will differ depending on which paradigm you use.

Speaking to a Khaos mage, Wiccan a Thelamite will get you 5 different sets of answers...OK thats because you were silly enough to try get sense out of the Chaot....but there you go.

On the question of using symbols like the pentagram and getting over any negative associations it may have held for you, study and understanding is the key. The knowledge pushes back the fear of the symbol.

Eventually you may come across boundaries that you won't want to cross, but you will make that choice alone and in the light of understanding and wisdom, not in adherence to blind dictatorial dogma.

...and thats is called spiritual freedom :)

[Ambrose]

I have researched and I know tha meaning of the symbol.But the sensation of doing something "wrong" by using it remains as it transcends rational understanding.
Another question would be: can I use an ornamental knife for a banishing ritual?just like that, whitout consacreting it?

[Odin]

Well we are all brought up in certain religions that depict certain symbols and religions that are considered taboo or devil worship

but it is up to the person the individual to decide and delve into the teachings

we can look at the swastika which brings up visions of a demonstrative regime but just looking up the definition in the dictionary you see that it is a religious symbol

[Captain Nik]

I always consecrate my tools, just seem the right thing to do.

[redhand]

The funny thing is most of these symbols just fell out of favor with certain ideas. The Pentagram for example was also a symbol of the five wounds of Christ. The cross was used long before Xians adopted it!

Education and realisation can lead to liberation from the binds of old outdated wrong beliefs (wrong for you). That is why some do a Black Mass to liberate themselves from the conditioning of these ill gotten ideas.

[S33k3R]

I have researched and I know tha meaning of the symbol.But the sensation of doing something "wrong" by using it remains as it transcends rational understanding.
Another question would be: can I use an ornamental knife for a banishing ritual?just like that, whitout consacreting it?

I'm not so sure that using certain symbols still feels "wrong" even after study isn't because it transcends rational understanding as much as showing the depth of manipulation by religious institutions on people in general. Its also hard to overturn beliefs that are formed when young and especially if they were re-enforced by your parents or elders. In a sense, accepting these symbols as "right" would by implication mean your families beliefs, and hence your families themselves were "wrong". Unfortunately, the path f the occult is a bit of an odd one when it comes to family relations.

On consecration...look at it like this...this here knife is special from other knifes...I don't put peanut butter and jelly on my morning toast with this knife. Whether you do an elaborate consecration ritual that dedicates it to the Gods or simply do a short meditation while holding it and then breath slowly across the blade, (which is just fine as far as consecrations go really), the action sets this knife apart from the mundane world. You'll find that as you use these "sacred" instruments more frequently, you'll drop more easily into the state of mind required to be an effective magician just by holding them.

This is the significance of ritual...when I want to do a proper rune reading, whatever my state of mind is before I start...distracted, irritated, silly or whatever...the act of setting up the stones, crystals and the various other paraphernalia...lighting incense and candles and getting my sheesha pipe going, puts me in the right frame of mind for the reading. Its as much a psychological trick as anything else.

[Ambrose]

I have done the ritual of the LBRP for the first time :)I think you have figured it out that it was the pentagram part that I had problems with, but the negative meaning which I used to asociate with it faded as I went through the steps.Now I feel strangely at peace and also warm despite the fact that the temperature in the room wasn't rised.

[S33k3R]

Well done.:) ...pushing back boundaries is an awesome feeling.

[Ambrose]

You didn't answer to this question:"And are the gods that appear in so many rituals real for you?Or are they parts of your being that you bring forth, charging them with energy of thought and emotion and linking them to particular characteristics?If the later, why does the ritual talk about respecting/revering them?If they are parts of your being (subconstious mind?) than, how could they posibly become upset?"
I am still curious to hear your point of view.

[S33k3R]

You didn't answer to this question:"And are the gods that appear in so many rituals real for you?Or are they parts of your being that you bring forth, charging them with energy of thought and emotion and linking them to particular characteristics?If the later, why does the ritual talk about respecting/revering them?If they are parts of your being (subconstious mind?) than, how could they posibly become upset?"
I am still curious to hear your point of view.

Have you ever seen a lake?...a big one?...ever gone swimming in one?...well next time you do, try this out. Get nice and calm, then hold your breath and swim down as deep as your are comfortable with, (please be sensible...if you aren't comfortable then don't do it..simple :) ).

Now you'll notice that as you descend deeper into the lake...things change...the water changes colour as the light is disipated, it goes from light green to dark and then eventually to inky black...it gets colder as the light fades and you can feel the weight of the water above you.

Now when your are down there...stop...your lungs will be compressed and your body should be neutrally or slightly negatively buoyant. Now open your senses. You should feel...nothing. No sight, no sound, no breath, no sensation...no thought.

OK, so WTF was that all about?

Well, I believe that all universal consciousness is the lake...this includes the human consciousness. Our normal state of being is much the same as splashing around the edges of this lake of consciousness in ankle deep water. However, when we meditate or employ ritual, we start swimming out into deeper water. When we invoke the forces of nature, we duck beneath the surface and start swimming down. It is in the inky cold depths of this lake that the denizens of the so called astral plane live. Here, we may interact with them and learn from them.

However, bear in mind that because our consciousness is as much a part of the lake as they are...it is difficult to separate where they end and we begin. Think of it more as a gentle, (or strong...depending on the entity), current that one may encounter down there. You experience them as the pull of a current and they experience you in the same fashion. So is the current part of the lake or separate?

Another way of putting it...can you say for certain at what depth the light stops?...you can say that at the surface there is light and at the bottom there is no light, but in between these two states is simply an area of ever increasing dimness. As we descend down into this spiritual lake of consciousness, we are in a very real sense delving into the deeper parts of our minds that usually lay dormant. The lake is withing us just as much as we are within it.

Such is our relationship to other intelligences.

Again, I re-iterate, breathold diving, (or apnea), is an awesome discipline bit its not something to muppet around with. Don't hyperventilate, don't push your limits unless you know what you are doing. Shallow water blackout is a killer and strikes without warning or sensation. Its just lights out and game over.

[Ambrose]

I see.So there are 2 dimensions that blend with eachother?And the gods are real and have their own agenda?Because than I don't understand why are there rituals for gods that are recent, like Chtulhu and Shogoth which are based on Lovecraft's books.Why hasn't anyone invoked them before?

[S33k3R]

Good question...to be honest I've never really gotten into that side of things myself...i.e Shoggoths and so on.

However, Gods don't have to be ancient. For example, part of Chaos Majick involves creating "entities" that may eventually evolve, with time and enough people believing in them into Gods in their own right. Remember that Gods are at the mercy of their believers.

The ritual part of it serves two separate functions, (as I interpret it...others may look at it differently). One is actually more for the mage himself rather than the God he trying to work with. The repetitive ritual helps the mage get into the right frame of mind to interact with the intelligence.

The other is the re-enforcement of the belief in the entity itself. If it is a generally accepted thing that you burn this incense, light a purple candle, dress up in a blue cloak with red underpants and a set of mickey mouse ears to call down such and such and such an entity, then those actions get associated with that particular energy. Lots of people doing the same thing will make that association stronger and strengthen the bridge the spans the divide between the 2 consciousnesses.

It doesn't really make a difference WHERE the belief lies that doing this will result in that, (whether on the human side or on the entity side), so long as there is a connection between action and manifestation.

At some level these entities do develop a personality of their own and are not merely extensions of our personality. We are not them and they are not us, we are linked but separate.

The English language is no good at explaining this type of thing....

Bear in mind that this is simply my version of how it works...I speak with no absolute truth, because that does not exist.

To quoth a great sage...
Trust those who claim to seek the truth...doubt those who claim to have found it.

[RunningAroundNakedOnFire]

These are awesome posts. Seeker, thanks for the link.


The other is the re-enforcement of the belief in the entity itself. If it is a generally accepted thing that you burn this incense, light a purple candle, dress up in a blue cloak with red underpants and a set of mickey mouse ears to call down such and such and such an entity, then those actions get associated with that particular energy. Lots of people doing the same thing will make that association stronger and strengthen the bridge the spans the divide between the 2 consciousnesses.

I think this may be a why I have a slight paranoia about working within an enochian or bible related magicks. Take the horror stories I've heard from other peeps and mix that with the thought that if belief energy gives objectivity to an entity, well holy hell. Think of the thousands of years, the bloodshed, holy christ, the EMOTION put into the bible beliefs and you've got something more powerful and real as compared to something like lovecraftian creatures and the like. Maybe a good idea then for me, and whoever else has this problem, would do better at creating their own organic paradigm, or looking into one less intimidating, especially for those brough up in a religous household.

I've thought of working within "The Wheel Of Time" compendium myself. VERY GOOD instructions on how to open yourself up to magick in those books. Amazing detail. It's a fictional story by Robert Jordan, but man he goes into detail about touching the "flow" or the "light". Makes me wonder about him really. Anyway, I'm getting off track! Just saying if a certain paradigm is too intimidating based on our scripts we have gathered up til now in life, maybe a less serious looking paradigm would be a better place to get started.

Seeker, I loved the lake analogy too. I'm saving that one! Thanks.::D

[kleet]

I have done the ritual of the LBRP for the first time :)I think you have figured it out that it was the pentagram part that I had problems with, but the negative meaning which I used to asociate with it faded as I went through the steps.Now I feel strangely at peace and also warm despite the fact that the temperature in the room wasn't rised.

2 things to remeber:

1. It gets more effective the more you do it.
2. Knights used to display a pentagram on their shields during the middle ages. Back then it was a christian symbol.

[Harlock]

sorry i have not noticed this thread. And i do agree perhaps we should post a few pieces of information an some beginner things. Ill watch this topic and maybe i can compile some info for you guys.

[IMtM]

What, a begginer's section of the forum, and no sticky?Something like a faq?
I propose to start something similar and I have some questions of my own.
How do you deal with the fact that, being borned and rised is a particular religion, some symbols have a negative significance for you, despite the fact that you learned lately that it means something else?Like the pentagram?Or the demons?
And are the gods that appear in so many rituals real for you?Or are they parts of your being that you bring forth, charging them with energy of thought and emotion and linking them to particular characteristics?If the later, why does the ritual talk about respecting/revering them?If they are parts of your being (subconstious mind?) than, how could they posibly become upset?

Gods? Archetypes and personification of nature? Personal savants? Hmm... Why do you think there is no sticky? Is it because of the fact that spirituality and "occult" thought is so personal? Hmmm?

[IMtM]

sorry i have not noticed this thread. And i do agree perhaps we should post a few pieces of information an some beginner things. Ill watch this topic and maybe i can compile some info for you guys.

Ask and you shall receive.

Email me at [email protected] There you go!