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Fr_CV
09-04-2009, 10:19 PM
Hello all,

How many are interested in the Golden Dawn?

If so, there is a great group out there that helps you with self initiation, based off of the ciceros books.

In any case, it is my advice to stay away from Robert Zink (Esoteric Golden Dawn) and David Griffin (HOGD/Alpha et Omega) due to their flame wars. No body wants to be a part of that. The good ones that are left are the HSoM, Ordo Stella Matutina, and of course, The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn by the Ciceros.

I used to be in Zink's group, but upon finding out that he ran other workshops - Ruach Healing, The Guarantee, The Power of Angels, Alchemical Mentoring, and stuff like that - it's clear his group is just a marketing scam. This has been my experience in my year with them. PLUS, they charge for grades, and the yearly dues are $80.. and each grade costs more plus the year dues, so, there you go... In fact, it got so bad that you can download Zink's course material online by the ORIGINAL compilers!

David Griffin's group isnt as bad, but, he does claim that one can be initiated into the 3 higher grades - reserved for the Secret Chiefs. Thats the only thing that set me off about him. Also, there is a legal battle between him and Chic Cicero - Chic won, and in any case, the too get along okay in theory.

I of course, prefer the Ciceros - they have done so much work to keep the G.D. alive. In fact, Regardie held the lineage and reached the second orders in the 1950s - when the final order collapsed in the 1970s. You can read this at the hermeticgoldendawn.org website, under library resources - they use Regardies own letters, scanned as proof.

Alright, here's my preferred group - The HSoM and the Ordo Stella Matutina. The HSoM is a group devoted to getting a fraternity for those online who self-initiate. You may need to make a lot of magickal tools, and do a lot of work on your own, but there cost is $36 a year (comapred to other groups $80) and they DONT charge for grades. I personally talked to the HSoM head and he confirmed this.

The OSM is the REAL order that runs the HSoM to help people - grades in the HSoM do not correspond to the OSM. The OSM is run the same way.

If im missing any GD orders, please let me know.

This is my experience, and of course, if your varies, let me know!

LVX,
Frater LeL

Links to all groups concerned:

Zink - Esotericgoldendawn.com
Griffin - golden-dawn.com
Cicero - hermeticgoldendawn.org
OSM&HSoM - ritual-magic.com

Fr_CV
09-04-2009, 10:29 PM
As I was writing the last reply, it came to mind - what about LINEAGE?

This is an important question. Since Regardie published the Golden Dawn rituals, any order can just spring up. Lineage isnt that important as experience, but people need some validation. how do THOSE orders hold up in this light of lineage?

Zink's EOGD - Original Members said all he used was a oujia board tog et in contact with secret chiefs. As we all know, at best, we just get in contact with lower astral entities that want to play games with us.

Griffin's HOGD/A+O - He claims a lineage to Mathers, as the name implies. He also has connections to France, and a "behman" (sp?) who was also a member of a GD order that died out, like Regardie. The issue is, if the rituals to reach the levels of the Secret Chiefs are real, and from the secret chiefs. I havent gotten that far, but I wonder why Griffin hasnt made himself 10=1 yet?

HOGD - Most well known, and linked to Regardie. He helped the Ciceros create a vault has he experienced it in the 1950s, 20 years before the last temple fell. This group is the most authentic, and also doing the most to spread the Golden Dawn teachings. Regardie himself said it is possible with a lot of work to self initiate.

HSoM and OSM - uses the material of the Ciceros, and not much else to be added upon. They are a very quiet group, and do not engage in flame wars, and are well mannered, with no outrageous claims.

Theres the overview of it all, and i'm not even sure if the OSM has its own lineage - regardless, at least they are and the HOGD are helping everyone who wants to join the Golden Dawn current, instead of pretending to be the highest and most secret and TRUEST thing out there.

LVX,
Frater LeL

ZeldaFitz
09-04-2009, 10:57 PM
Oh God FR_CV David is a friend, I must stay neutral, but your advice is sound.

Fr_CV
09-04-2009, 10:59 PM
Oh God FR_CV David is a friend, I must stay neutral, but your advice is sound.

Of course, however, i still cannot sanction the fact one can reach the level of secret chiefs in one lifetime. But thats me.

ZeldaFitz
09-05-2009, 09:04 AM
You are talking of high in the order in this lifetime? I see no reason why not. If you are talking beyond human I think that takes a few incarnations.

ZeldaFitz
09-05-2009, 12:27 PM
I have bigger problems understanding that people actually believe in the concept of the higher chiefs:) That part of the GD just feels like a big hoax to me.

If you are a member of an order then you would not be asking this so I assume you are not. It is not a hoax as the concept of higher chiefs is a reality. There are a few on this forum.

ZeldaFitz
09-05-2009, 12:29 PM
god from world uviverses may charge planets on a balanced level but he withdrew i asked if he could hold on to some to pay for all spirtually or thrown away he withdrew. might have a distance factor seems coincidental she devil still havent figured out hermetics yet but know am facinated by this group. how long has it been around (cos) ..

tell us some good qualities

It has been around since the 1800's, and most people think it died out in the 1950's, which it did not. The teachings are out there for all who are interested. It is not for everyone, especially people who want a quick result and are not into discipline and hard work.

Fr_CV
09-05-2009, 02:14 PM
If you are a member of an order then you would not be asking this so I assume you are not. It is not a hoax as the concept of higher chiefs is a reality. There are a few on this forum.

To be clear - by higher chiefs, i mean that of the third order. They are astral entities, and not real. There are not any on this forum.

Continuing on, the Original GD did die out fast, but thats due to the strains of England at the time, and one chief wanted to keep up with the magic, and another wanted mysticism. In any case, the span of life of the original GD does not mean the teachings were ineffective. I daresay the two leaders just had different ideas about where to take it.

In any case, one of the main links to the golden dawn was Regardie - who got initiated into a vault in the 1950s - long before the last temple closed in 1970. Since then, a lot of golden dawn groups have sprung up, which is what my above posts are about. Two of them fight greatly, and the others stay in the background. Why? One is from Mathers, in France, and still is based mainly in Europe, and the second, in America. In any case...

Continuing on yet again, MrK is MAINLY correct, however, the golden dawn is a GOOD START for anyone interested in ceremonial magick. Of course, we must distinguish between the Golden Dawn and the RR et AC.

ZeldaFitz
09-05-2009, 03:54 PM
To be clear - by higher chiefs, i mean that of the third order. They are astral entities, and not real. There are not any on this forum.

Continuing on, the Original GD did die out fast, but thats due to the strains of England at the time, and one chief wanted to keep up with the magic, and another wanted mysticism. In any case, the span of life of the original GD does not mean the teachings were ineffective. I daresay the two leaders just had different ideas about where to take it.

In any case, one of the main links to the golden dawn was Regardie - who got initiated into a vault in the 1950s - long before the last temple closed in 1970. Since then, a lot of golden dawn groups have sprung up, which is what my above posts are about. Two of them fight greatly, and the others stay in the background. Why? One is from Mathers, in France, and still is based mainly in Europe, and the second, in America. In any case...

Continuing on yet again, MrK is MAINLY correct, however, the golden dawn is a GOOD START for anyone interested in ceremonial magick. Of course, we must distinguish between the Golden Dawn and the RR et AC.

Frater I was kidding! I knew exactly what you meant. I was trying to put a little levity into the situation. They assists the order with healing also. I don't know if you are in an order yet, but you will get to know about them . Since I am on Sabbatical, I shall say good bye and check in when I get back. Farewell.

Fr_CV
09-05-2009, 05:46 PM
Another really foolish claim some Golden Dawners do. Mostly the European ones is that you can not do any magic without being initiated in the order. They even claim that all magicians in history has been a member of the Golden Dawn since they have been initiated by these Secret Chiefs and that magic is impossible without activating the third eye and contact them on the astral plane:)

Claims like that is why I have a hard time taking them serious:)

Yes, that too. Quite insane. In fact, i go as far as to say, the people claiming to be the ONLY golden dawn order, to have the only this and that are quite incorrect.

The only group i absolutely despise is the EOGD, and that is from personal experience.

Fr_CV
09-05-2009, 07:51 PM
Actually any magickian worth his weight has been a member in the GD at one time or another. The HOGD is based on Blavatsky's teachings and then some.
Actually, the idea she got teachings from tibet is laughable at best... I practiced tibetan buddhism from 14-17 before i moved to western magick. Honestly, Tibet has no notion of the astral besides the traditional hindu view of devas/asuras and so on.

And also, yes, I can read tibetan, and have practiced tibetan buddhism under Khentrul Lodro T'haye Rinpoche... his website can be found easily.

LVX,
Frater LeL

PS. I do not mix systems, so my practice of Buddhism is on hold.

ZeldaFitz
09-05-2009, 08:16 PM
Surprise, surprise, and what a surprise it will be hey Belasko? LOL.

Fr_CV
09-05-2009, 08:23 PM
Laughable, that woman was responsible for most of the orders that are out there today. I think you better do your research, as most orders and true Adepts would not be here if it wasn't for Blavatsky. Max Theron and Blavatsky were what is real in Occultism, not these orders who stole from her and posted as their own. Regardie has quoted her, Fortune has quoted her, Crowley has quoted her. You will find this out if you are accepted in the HSOM, I would withhold judgement till you begin your studies.
No, i am not saying what she is saying is WRONG.

What i am saying is that she didnt have any real knowledge of tibetan buddhism. Of occultism, I am sure that she had very good knowledge of that.

Belphebe
09-05-2009, 08:31 PM
Have you read any of her works? She traveled to Shamballa, and had a grasp on it all. I am joining the HOGD because they have derived from her teachings and have the secret papers no other order has.

Belphebe
09-06-2009, 07:15 PM
Another person who did all this traveling was Gurdjieff. Also responsible for spreading the New Age poison in to western magic. Mixing styles that should have stayed unmixed or if mixed should have been mixed by people who understood them.

You don't understand at all do you? If you are not interested in the Golden Dawn there is a forum that likes trolls and bullsh..t artists. I suggest you go there. The only new age person I see here is you. Please go and peddle your rhetoric somewhere else. This is for people who are truly interested in the secret teachings, there is a diner down the street, I suggest you go there and use a menu for your magick.

Fr_CV
09-06-2009, 07:56 PM
Have you read any of her works? She traveled to Shamballa, and had a grasp on it all. I am joining the HOGD because they have derived from her teachings and have the secret papers no other order has.

If you knew anything at all, Shambala is not an actual place. .

Shambhala (Tib. bde 'byung) is a Sanskrit term meaning swayam + bhala meaning self benefited or swayam + bala meaning self powered. Commonly it is understood to be a "place of peace/tranquility/happiness". Shakyamuni Buddha is said to have taught the Kalachakra tantra on request of King Suchandra of Shambhala; the teachings are also said to be preserved there. Shambhala is believed to be a society where all the inhabitants are enlightened, actually a Buddhist Pure Land, centered by a capital city called Kalapa.

any serious buddhist, western or otherwise does not consider shambala to be real. She may have visited it astrally, but not physically.

Anyways, that put aside, I side with Mr.K on this one.

Fr_CV
09-06-2009, 08:39 PM
I believe it is the ingenuity, the ceremonies, the FIRST magickal order, the effects of the rituals, and the knowledge lectures make it the best because it is the FIRST thing ceremonial magickians hear of, and possibly, want to join.

I have some of my own reasons. Its GREAT for beginners and the advanced.

ZeldaFitz
09-06-2009, 09:54 PM
Are we having fun yet? LOL.

Fr_CV
09-06-2009, 11:03 PM
"I only feel alive when i'm covered in polka dots and taco sauce."

and in any case, yes, we are. The thing here is about the Golden Dawn itself, and not the contributing factors to it - who cares of blavatsky had anything to do with the GD? Quite clearly they are not quoting here in any source i have seen. So, let us move on to say, Westcott and woodman.

Fr_CV
09-06-2009, 11:44 PM
Yes Westcott was clearly the most knowledgeable among the founders and had access to a lot of material from SRIA. The history and fighting in the order is quite interesting though I think:)

So, how did the SRIA? Is the GD based off the SRIA? Your view?


In my opinion, the GD got inspiration from masonry, and the SRIA - but it is its own thing as far as magick goes.

Fr_CV
09-07-2009, 12:22 AM
I wouldn't say based but since many of them came from the SRIA and this was where they first learned magic it is most certain a big influence. We know this is where they found the cypher document no mater what we chose to belive when it comes to that document and the note about Anna Sprengel found with it.

GD developed their own new system of Magic based on many different sources. Sources they at the time thought was genuine like Barrets The Magus and some of the Enochian work. They also used many eastern concepts and mixed it with the western traditions. Stripped away most old religious thinking and replaced it with a rather advanced form of symbology taken from hermetics and kabbalah for example. It is a rather fascinating system to be honest.
Where does the SRIA teach magic?

LVX
Frater LeL

Fr_CV
09-07-2009, 04:40 PM
What secret teachings by the way? I doubt an order can get less secret then the Golden Dawn:)

Haha, I think she means that of the RR et AC - we see the golden dawn flaunted, but the inner order is way more secret, and of course, though, the inner cannot exist without the outer. Unless of course you are the EOGD, who, when the original members reached the inner - left. Their dreams were smashed.

In any case, most orders are indeed better then that.

Khabs am pekht.

Belphebe
09-07-2009, 06:47 PM
Light In Extension. My Dad drums this into my head every day, we say the Berekah.

Fr_CV
09-07-2009, 07:29 PM
Light In Extension. My Dad drums this into my head every day, we say the Berekah.

Awesome. I'm going to start doing that by myself eventually. Maybe when i do more of the introduction material &c.

Belphebe
09-07-2009, 08:06 PM
My dad said you are going to enjoy it.

Fr_CV
09-07-2009, 08:22 PM
My dad said you are going to enjoy it.
Of course I am. Please, all arguements are over. All fighting has ceased. I, personally, will put an end to the divisions here among all GD groups, whether one likes them or not. That is my duty, or so I feel.

Khabs am pekht
Frater LeL

Belphebe
09-07-2009, 09:37 PM
Yes it is time.

Fr_CV
09-07-2009, 11:01 PM
Yes it is time.
Of course, then again, maybe im just way to young to make such... critical statements.

Sincerus Renatus
02-01-2011, 10:54 AM
Griffin's HOGD/A+O - He claims a lineage to Mathers, as the name implies. He also has connections to France, and a "behman" (sp?) who was also a member of a GD order that died out, like Regardie. The issue is, if the rituals to reach the levels of the Secret Chiefs are real, and from the secret chiefs. I havent gotten that far, but I wonder why Griffin hasnt made himself 10=1 yet?

Sorry for bumping this old thread. But I just read it and felt there need to be some clarifications, regarding the lineage issue and the nature of the Third Order.

Firstly the French Temple of Ahatoor, which has been ressurected in Paris since 1994. That Temple is a valid successor of Mather's Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega through English Orders such as the Order of the Pyramid and Sphinx and the Ancient Magical Order of the Golden Dawn, who both held authentic lineages from the A.O. on the level of 7=4 (which is the "controlling" Grade of the G.D.) The HOGD/A+O received this lineage from Paris in 1997 and since then appended the "A+O" to the "HOGD".

Regarding "behman" you are in fact referring to Cris Monnastre (the author of the preface to the Llewellyn edition of 'The Golden Dawn'), who was a close pupil of Regardie since the late 1970's. She was in fact the closest pupil and only student who took regular tuition from Regardie in person, and not from letters, etc. She was initiatiated with Adam Forrest to the 5=6 by Regardie in 1982. It was she who ressurected the HOGD in America with the help of Laura Jennings, back in 1982, with the direct supervision of Regardie. She then initiated David Griffin, the current head of the HOGD/A+O, through the Grades up to the 6=5. He in turn received his 7=4 from Paris.

So the validity of the lineage of the HOGD/A+O is as valid as any other authentic G.D. Order. It comes both from Regardie and from Paris, and involves not only the A.O. but also the Stella Matutina and A.E. Waite's Fellowship of the Rosy Cross.


Regardie held the lineage and reached the second orders in the 1950s

No, Regardie reached the 5=6 in 1935. He published almost the entire corpus that he had received just some few years later (1937-40) in the tome The Golden Dawn.

Furthermore, the "Regardie lineage", regardless of Order who has received it, hardly constitutes a "valid" lineage according to traditional G.D. protocol. Regardie wasn't a 7=4 and thus lacked authority to intiate anyone into the G.D., and definitely not into the Inner Order (R.R. et A.C.) which requires at least one Adept of the 7=4 Grade. But using a more modern and liberal attitude, one could stretch it to regard the Regardie lineage as a "intiatic lineage" on the level of 5=6.


To be clear - by higher chiefs, i mean that of the third order. They are astral entities, and not real. There are not any on this forum.

No they are not "astral entities". That is a modern invention of the 20th Century. The tradition of "Secret Chiefs" goes way further back than this. The members of the "Third Order" are incarnated as you and me, but I would dare to say that they differ from us in their spiritual attainment. Some of them are "more than human". It is possible to reach to that level in one life time, but it takes almost a life time to reach that lofty goal. The means to this is internal alchemical processings of a highly secret nature. Thus you cannot reach it only through the published formulae of Golden Dawn Ceremonial Magic in one life time. But there exists processes that can bring you there, as it does in the Eastern Tantric traditions.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Aradia
02-01-2011, 07:35 PM
You seem to know quite a bit about The Golden Dawn, Sincerus Renatus. Thank you for your input. :)

Sincerus Renatus
02-02-2011, 09:41 AM
Do you have an English Translation regarding your blog?

I have a google translator button on right hand side bar, just under the G.D. symbol. I append the link to that: Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgyllenegryningen.blogspot .com%2F&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=sv&tl=en)

Besides, half of the blog postings are in English. I'm not planning to translate the Swedish essays by myself. Sorry for that.


You do realize that David Griffin has the secret papers from Mathers, and hence is where all the feuds were started.

Yes, I believe you are correct in your analysis. I myself represent the HOGD/A+O in Sweden and Scandinavia and have been a member of the same order since 1995 when everything still were sub rosa. In fact, David Griffin were my Hierophant through the Outer Order, and my Chief Adept when I was "vaulted". I also were there when David received his lineage from the Paris Temple, and all the documentation that followed with this. I was active in the implemantation of the A.O. Rituals in the Swedish Temples. All hell broke loose in the G.D. community after that, when it came out into the open.

I'm only saying this that you and everyone else will understand that I don't base my opinions on mere rumors and second (or third) hand sources. I have been involved in this process since its beginning.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe,
S:.R:.

Gemnus32
02-02-2011, 11:28 AM
The Golden Dawn is definitely not my best area. However, I guess the whole thrust of the group - as well as the source of its problems - was the initial, 'transmission,' document of S.L. Mathers. It was supposed to have been a direct transmission from the great Rosicrucians, and many suspected that the document was a fraud. In defense of Mathers, he was known to have some pretty uncanny abilities.

Also - I just wanted to note that G.I. Gurdjieff was a self-admitted, 'sly man.' He was an incredible mischief maker, as well as a real scoundrel. One time he was making toasts to a rather useless student group, and after five or six toasts, he stood up and toasted the whole group as, 'a pack of idiots.' I will remember at some point to turn up the bookmark for an excellent French website concerning his heir, a French ballet teacher named Jeanne de Salzmann.

Sincerus Renatus
02-02-2011, 05:12 PM
However, I guess the whole thrust of the group - as well as the source of its problems - was the initial, 'transmission,' document of S.L. Mathers. It was supposed to have been a direct transmission from the great Rosicrucians, and many suspected that the document was a fraud.

Actually it was William Wynn Westcott who is accredited to having been fraudelent concerning his authority of starting the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. What you are referring to is the (in)famous Fräulein Sprengel letters in which Westcott purportetly is corresponding with a German Adept from the Temple of 'Licht, Leben und Liebe'. This was done in 1887. It was Mathers that in 1900 made the allegation agains Westcott that it all was a freud.

S.L. MacGregor Mathers himelf had already in 1891 claimed to have forged his own link with the "Third Order", through a "Secret Chief" whom he only knew by the motto of 'Lux E Tenebris'. The result from this contact we now have as the Golden Dawn Theurgical system as contained in the Rituals and Ceremony of the Adeptus Minor 5=6 Grade.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Gemnus32
02-03-2011, 08:45 AM
Sincerus:

I appreciate the reply. The Golden Dawn is not my best area - like I said. Also - I am neither an initiate or a self-initiate into the Golden Dawn method (system?). Just as an aside note - I have read some of the works of S.L. MacMathers, and I was very impressed with the lucidity of the texts. Also, I definitely recognize that the Golden Dawn was - and continues to be - a landmark in the esoteric, even though my own work is in a different area.

Enoch-the-Enochian
05-08-2011, 02:14 PM
It has been around since the 1800's, and most people think it died out in the 1950's, which it did not. The teachings are out there for all who are interested. It is not for everyone, especially people who want a quick result and are not into discipline and hard work.

Hahahaha not for anyone if that is accurate, surely. Is there a Enochian sub forum here, i couldn't find it me darlings. Anyway i'm new if you never knew. I'll just enjoy me brew and get to know you lot, it'll be cool to hear what you got. I got naught.