If you are not a Satanist...

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

...then maybe you should think twice before posting in this section. "Why is that", you may ask? "Aren't my opinions just as good as any other opinion?" Well, to be explicit, no.

Hear me out, think about this. The people here who profess to be Satanists see the world a certain way, a way that is not common among many other "paths" which would fall under the blanket term "occult". The people here don't think that "everyone is equal", this applies also to opinions. The people here who profess to be Satanists have a certain stake in things like, what is and is not Satanism, what it means to be a Satanist, in what direction the Satanic movement is going, who IS NOT a Satanist and why, and many other things pertinent to the future of the Satanic movement as a whole.

When you post your opinions in this thread about these subjects, you are in effect giving opinions on a subject that you are very likely to have little correct knowledge of, and little stake in any false information you may be putting out on the internet. You are in effect, harming us, if only very slightly, and making an annoyance of yourself, if only very slightly.

Now, I am not saying don't post here at all! I certainly don't mind answering honest questions, as I am sure many other Satanists here also do not, but only when I don't have to compete with Wiccans, ceremonial magicians, chaos sorcerers, etc., just to have an honest answer, from someone who ACTUALLY CLAIMS TO BE A SATANIST, be heard.

If your not a professed Satanist, then maybe, just maybe, you should let someone else handle the questions. And maybe, just maybe, you should lurk more discussions before giving us your two cents.

Just a suggestion.

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

Although, it should be mentioned that Satanism is a very generalized term. There are different "types" of Satanism, even though most only recognize their form of Satanism as the "true" form. As such, it is important to take that into account when reading the posts.

Yes this is why I said "profess" to be a Satanist. I realize this board is open to many, and am willing to take a magnanimous position on the "types" of Satanism that are likely to be found here. If I wasn't, I would have just stayed on the message boards closed to the different "types" that I don't like.


Does that mean you are not allowed to post at Ceremonial Magick because you are a Satanist.

No, but it would be just as presumptuous, rude, and silly to claim ones opinions are the equivalent of an experienced ceremonial magician based on the sole fact that one professes oneself to be a Satanist. See Leviathans post above.


could you tell me exactly what True Satanist is ?

I could, but that would be my opinion, not an objective fact, not to mention a huge waste of my time since I'm sure your just being cheeky in a knee jerk reaction to something my post doesn't actually say. Declaring what a true Satanist is or that different types of Satanism are inferior to mine was not the point of my post anyway.

The point was to call attention to the fact that a lot of people come to this section and make declarations about what Satanism is, and then turn right around and say, "Oh, I'm not a Satanist, but I've been in the occult community for years", or something like, "I was a Satanist for five years and I know all about it".

Rubbish.

Hanging out in the Vatican does not make you a Catholic or an expert on Catholicism, at best you'll gain a rough working knowledge of the Vatican itself. Being a Satanist for a period and then moving on to something else no more makes a person an expert than chopping wood for a fire every year or so makes someone a professional lumberjack.

I'm sure Wiccans would not approve of me going over to their section and telling people what Wicca is, all I ask is that Satanists receive that same kind of courtesy. I don't think this is asking a great deal at all.

[EtuMalku]

Where do the Luciferians talk?

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

Where do the Luciferians talk?

That is a good question.

[Gazeeboh]

What Satanic Philosophy do you find yourself most closely adhering to?

[EtuMalku]

To whom are you speaking to?

[isis]

what if you are new and want to know about Satanist becouse you might want to become one and you say the we cant post here that is bull **** i have a Satanist bible that over 100 years old that i read everyday so dose the not make me a Satanist but i am also interested in magick, witchcraft, and all the others that is out their.. i got my Satanist bible from a vimpire friend of mine that cant be found now and the book is out of print cant be found..



please ignore this i was jest feeling a little bitchey today.. it is becouse i am hurting and not feeling well.... i happend to fall out of a window at a friends house but it felt like i was pushed but i am all right i jest springed my lug and wrist so i am doing this one handed and it is making me mad... if i affend any one i am sorry....

i am jest feeling a bit bitchey today... sorry again..

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

what if you are new and want to know about Satanist becouse you might want to become one and you say the we cant post here that is bull **** i have a Satanist bible that over 100 years old that i read everyday so dose the not make me a Satanist but i am also interested in magick, witchcraft, and all the others that is out their.. i got my Satanist bible from a vimpire friend of mine that cant be found now and the book is out of print cant be found..

so let me get this if i should take some vires out of this book and place it here that you are jest going to call me a fake and say i dont know what i am talking about.. this is not right to say that no one can post here cause they are not Satanist by your standers this is so fucked up in so many ways and on so many lavels that it is jest plane BULL ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said my standards apply. If someone does not profess to be a Satanist, then they are not, by the law of identity, a basic principle of reason. And I'm not saying that people can't post, I'm saying they should be courteous enough to think twice about certain posts. If you profess yourself to be a Satanist, then by all means, join in, lets hear what you have to say about it. If not, then why are you posting here if you don't have a question about it? What are you getting out of it and why should we welcome your participation?

I can't help but notice the most emotional replies to my original post also seem to be replies to a post I never wrote.

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

People, read the post all the way through before having a fit...


Now, I am not saying don't post here at all! I certainly don't mind answering honest questions, as I am sure many other Satanists here also do not, but only when I don't have to compete with Wiccans, ceremonial magicians, chaos sorcerers, etc., just to have an honest answer, from someone who ACTUALLY CLAIMS TO BE A SATANIST, be heard.

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

I know what you mean about being courteous , as i hope all are. I think we have a misunderstanding, as in my case I was not posting my questions to you it was the other poster , but unfortunately as always happens it became extremely confusing. Sorry about that.

Actually I was replying to isis, lol. Confusing indeed.

[ElNebuloso]

I prefer to talk only to those I can relate to for they justify me and my beliefs, my world is amazing, if you don't agree with me don't bother throwing your little stones.

Excellent humoristic take on the mentality of some, I applaud you.

I don't claim to be anything but I play many characters on the casual Internet

[ElNebuloso]

I think everyone does.

We all do it at one time or another, we are all just bits of information here and there and some are more honest about their lying than others- I am an honest liar. I will give the flash and the pizazz of all the greatest in my mind no matter how it is perceived on the vaudevillian stage from the crowd. it is one of opportunnity, some or none will come, it is of no consequence to me either way . Meanwhile some attack my paper tigers- there is nothing to defend so I don't.

[SWM]

lying employs weakness in your credibility. How could one trust you if you are known for lying? Why would you care? If your entire internet existence is a lie, then what is the point of going to an educated and truth based forum? If I can remember correctly, the Occult is about discovering new secrets, not hiding them. I do not approve of any role playing or acting on this site at all. How can I trust any of you with my info, or your info if you admit to Role Playing? Its absurd.

The same way I trust Lady D to know what she's talking about, I am suspicious of Gaz. Why? Because one is funny and sarcastic (with deep undertones [or not]). If you lose yourself on something as simple as the internet because you get "lost in the act", I pray for social interaction as a whole.

[Gazeeboh]

SWM, you shouldn't trust me at all. But you should realize that all we ever do is role-play and wear masks. Thats the point and the fun part. You too are playing the role of enlightend one who fears for the rest of who don't get it or something like that. See? Fun right?

The guys here don't actually mean they "lie". That would be silly.

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

There is only one thing really I am trying to get at with my original post. If you look at all the other sections for occult discussion, in none of them do you see the amount of trolling, misinformation, and down right lack of consideration. Now I'm not trying to paint Satanism as a victim here, far from it. I could just leave and be done with it.

I'm only asking one thing, that whatever standards of conduct that have kept the other sections free of this crap also be made to apply here. Hopefully this can be done by people being considerate and mindful of what they post. If this is not possible, then perhaps we could use a little moderation here. Like the Satanic blood orgy thread. Why has that not been locked or deleted. It has already been revealed to be a troll, why has this equivalent to Satanic black-face been allowed to sit and attract yet more trolls? Is there some reason the Satanists who come here are expected to be more tolerant of this trash then other members of this board?

I say no. I say we shouldn't have to tolerate this, and I will eventually leave if this is allowed to continue; others may stay. De gustibus non disputandem est. Probably no one cares if I leave or not, or would be glad to see me go. But I'm telling you now, if this section doesn't get some clean up, then it will only cater to reverse christians and heavy metal stoners acting out music videos.

If the moderators of this board don't have a problem with that, then so be it.

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

Actually I was hoping it and other threads like it would be locked, or even better deleted. I have a sense of humor like anyone else, I mean I am a member of a religion whose primary symbol is the Devil for hell's sake, but I do have my limits and I am not one of those people who hides behind a faux sense of humor as an excuse to disrespect people or hide my insecurities. I am not angry about this really, I'm just pointing out the hypocracy, not so much of the board moderators as all the people who come here looking to the Satanism section as a place they can cause mischief before they return to areas of the board that they actually care about and take seriously.

The too long didn't read of this post is that I would like to see some adult behavior.

[ElNebuloso]

Are we having a hoot yet or what?
I may or may not be giving you the benefit of the doubt and I may or may not be concious of my own actions.
Fertile soils with so much to grow, water it and it will do so

Lady D, you make yourself busy only because you want yourself to be so- do you have too much time on your hands?

[ElNebuloso]

No. Do you? Unlike most I can do more than one thing at a time. I actually function quite well thank you

We will start dating soon, an online romance without equal, you are already interested I hear it in your tone, deny it here but you won't deny it in public.

[ElNebuloso]

I have nothing to say. LOL.

Yes you do, dig deep into your bowells.

[ElNebuloso]

Only through overt confrontations will we truly know the base natures of our fellow men for the brutal honesties they display at the times of extreme duress will they truly show their true natures.

This has nothing to do with anything I have posted within this thread.

[SWM]

To jump back in response, I think I overreacted. I just hate when people pretend to be something they aren't. Lying has an enormous upside in manipulation. However, in a trusted environment I felt threatened by the mention of lies and role playing. Sorry for the thin skin.

[agedone]

I question whether these so called "Satanists" are in fact Satanists in any way by the definition of which it is coined to be a "LaVeyan Satanist". Any study of Anton would not likely call themselves a Satanist and anyone who does while conforming to it is not a true study at all. No offense but there are quite a lot of poseurs in Satanism these days. I hope you aren't too offended. :p

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

I question whether these so called "Satanists" are in fact Satanists in any way by the definition of which it is coined to be a "LaVeyan Satanist". Any study of Anton would not likely call themselves a Satanist and anyone who does while conforming to it is not a true study at all.

Could you perhaps explain this further please.

[agedone]

I am of course speaking of Herd Conformity.


Herd Conformity — That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely, instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

I think it should be fairly obvious what sort of conformity Anton spoke of and I feel that includes the Church of Satan as well. Does he not wish us to be free? Then why would he contain us within a sphere of influence he himself placed upon us. Simply, he would not. So a true satanist would not call himself a satanist because anyone who truly invokes everything Anton taught would invoke it in such a way that they would conform to nothing but themselves and would trust no one over their own judgments and concerns. To put it lightly, the Church of Satan would be beneath them.



I question all things. As I stand before the festering and varnished facades of your haughtiest moral dogmas, I write thereon in letters of blazing scorn: Lo and behold; all this is fraud!

As environments change, no human ideal standeth sure!

Whenever, therefore, a lie has built unto itself a throne, let it be assailed without pity and without regret, for under the domination of an inconvenient falsehood, no one can prosper.

Let established sophisms be dethroned, rooted out, burnt and destroyed, for they are a standing menace to all true nobility of thought and action!

Popular lies have ever been the most potent enemies of personal liberty. There is only one way to deal with them: Cut them out, to the very core, just as cancers. Exterminate them root and branch. Annihilate them, or they will us!

For instance, a lot of people look at Marilyn Manson as a Satanist. He is a Reverend so why not look at him like a Satanist? Well has he done anything really Satanic lately? No, not really. He stands there on stage talking about subjects that people will listen to and his entire goal is to make more money. To do this he has to get people to believe, or at least fear, what he is saying. He drops his baggage, he lets go of the thoughts and moral dogma placed upon him to get what he desires, this both makes him of Satanism and not of Satanism because he invokes 1 side of it while shunning the other. True Satanists would be the people he surrounds himself with who do not identify themselves as Satanists but act very Satanic. They are not conforming to anything. They are simply listening and being heard.

So really I feel that to even call yourself a Satanist is counter-productive to what Satanism is all about. Anton preached of ego and destruction but he did not preach of a conformity to it. To that end I feel that there are very few True Satanists in these modern times and many Satanists have shared this opinion from time to time over the years.

[EtuMalku]

EtuMalku says - Hi guys, I forgot how to laugh and all the joy fell out of me a long time ago. I can't take a joke, sense sarcasm, or otherwise relax and realize when someone isn't actually calling me a son of a bitch. Curses on you all because I'm totally powerful and spooky. lulz

Anyhow, SWM, you shouldn't trust me at all. But you should realize that all we ever do is role-play and wear masks. Thats the point and the fun part. You too are playing the role of enlightend one who fears for the rest of who don't get it or something like that. See? Fun right?

The guys here don't actually mean they "lie". That would be silly.What exactly was the point of this diatribe? Why are are you putting words into my mouth?

. . . oh, and where did you say the Luciferians can post again?

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

I am of course speaking of Herd Conformity.

I see, so by your reckoning, your one of the few true Satanists by supposedly being less conformist then people who call themselves Satanists, or members of the Church of Satan. You of course missed the point, Satanism is not just non-conformity for it's own sake. Purposeless non-conformity is just as herd-like as persistent conformity.

I will direct your attention to this.
Rebels Without Cause (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Rebels.html)

Otherwise I have only one thing to say on your view, that despite the fact that you claim to be a non-conformist, you have still come to a place where Satanists congregate. Why bother if you seek non-conformity? Why go to a place where you are likely to find those that you describe, and feel are your lessers?

Is it the ego boost you get from having an audience for you one-up-manship?

Or do you not realize that your avoidance of herd behavior is superficial.

Of course you could be the real deal, and are so magnanimous as to deign to come down from your mountain of individuality and teach us poor saps how it's done.

You may even find a few who will be taken in by the latter most possibility. At least you have the comfort of knowing that you are your own special snowflake, with your own unique special specialness, just like everyone else.

[agedone]

I see, so by your reckoning, your one of the few true Satanists by supposedly being less conformist then people who call themselves Satanists, or members of the Church of Satan. You of course missed the point, Satanism is not just non-conformity for it's own sake. Purposeless non-conformity is just as herd-like as persistent conformity.
No, actually if you go back and read what I posted you will find that I never claimed to be a Satanist at all. I was simply depositing a response to the topic you yourself brought up. You said, "I don't want to speak with anyone who is not a Satanist on this Satanism category.", to which I replied, "What exactly is it that makes you a Satanist?"

You are totally ignoring my point.

What is it that makes you whatever it is that you think you are? You sit there and cling to your silly labels and what does that bring you? Do you claim to have a better understanding of the Nine Satanic Sins than I? Do you claim to know anything more than I do? You are welcome to your ego but so am I.
This is not your house. I am not required to respect your viewpoint on what you think is Satanism.




Is it the ego boost you get from having an audience for you one-up-manship?

Or do you not realize that your avoidance of herd behavior is superficial.

Of course you could be the real deal, and are so magnanimous as to deign to come down from your mountain of individuality and teach us poor saps how it's done.

You may even find a few who will be taken in by the latter most possibility. At least you have the comfort of knowing that you are your own special snowflake, with your own unique special specialness, just like everyone else.

Absolutely. Cheers.


Let it be known I am not insulted by this discussion. If anyone wishes it to continue then I am of abidance. As you said, I do love the audience and I am pleased to have your attention. I don't think anyone has been so forthcoming before. It is nice to be looked at sometimes when all you've seen is yourself. But that respect is in duality. *Smile*

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

I assumed you were a Satanist because you are posting in this thread. Your not a Satanist? Then why are you here?

[agedone]

I assumed you were a Satanist because you are posting in this thread. Your not a Satanist? Then why are you here?

Hmm, I guess Im a super villian.

The Caped Anti-Crusader.

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

Well it's just that the purpose of my original post was to ask people who aren't Satanists not to come here and say who is and isn't a Satanist, or what is and isn't Satanism, which you did with the first post in your thread. So if your not a Satanist then I can only assume your purpose is trolling the thread.

To answer your earlier question, my willingness to accept the label is a start to being a Satanist, though would not be the end to it. But on that point many people differ in opinion, so I'm not going to bother saying. There is just no point in it. I can only say that labels may be limiting for some, and not others. If you find that you are limited by labels then you've taken the proper course of action.

[agedone]

Very well, I will find some other thread to call you a poseur in.:D HAHAHA
I'm just going to come out and say that you don't seem like much of a Satanist at all.

[ElNebuloso]

Excellent play! I applaud you all for your performances however typical, my doorman will pay you and get your coats- or is there a third act?

[SWM]

as a non satanist, I'm going to be the objective point of view. El is a troll.
anyway, age is horrible at using logic. He spews fallacy's.

Thanks for the opinion/counter opinion, but if you respond to inteligent and logical explanations to a counterpoint, you have give up your right to sarcasm. This is an adult forum. Bickering isn't very productive at all. If you were civil enough to argue with out digs, then we could take your opinions seriously.

So far as a non satanist, I am unbiased and objective. Your argument included that:

Calling yourself a Satanist is counterproductive

The CoS is counterproductive due to its congregation

Claim that M.M. only incorperates one facet of satanism while ignoring the other



What is it that makes you whatever it is that you think you are? You sit there and cling to your silly labels and what does that bring you? Do you claim to have a better understanding of the Nine Satanic Sins than I? Do you claim to know anything more than I do? You are welcome to your ego but so am I.
This is not your house. I am not required to respect your viewpoint on what you think is Satanism.

the bolded is a redundant statement. Its a fallacy in modern philosophy. Basically it states that we all have our own opinions, so why bother arguing at all due to the fact that our opinions do not change.

Why would you argue that arguing is pointless? Its again, redundant.

The italicized is unwarranted and invalid. Seeing as this forum is based on respect of diversity and others opinions, you are in fact required by popular consensus. If you argue that popular opinion shouldn't effect you in any way, you are wrong. This is because the masses rule. History shows that mob rule almost always wins.

As a mob, the satanists on this site disagree with you. Seeing as they are Satanists and you are not, I think they would know more about Satanism by merit alone. Nice try, but you lost this one.

[ElNebuloso]

Now we are talking, aren't we?

[SWM]

quite. Post something of value or get out.

[ElNebuloso]

I already have, numerous times. You are in no position to tell anyone to "get out" unless your world is so fragile that I should not exist by your choice, you are not a gracious host and I find that deplorable, you have much to learn. Existence and beauty should walk hand in hand for in the lack of either they bare nothing.

[EtuMalku]

Well, before this thread is indeed locked, let me ask a couple of questions please.
Would the OP define what a Satanist is and I can go from there.
Also, would it be alright if a Luciferian participated here?

[SWM]

elnebuloso, the fact that this entire thread is about the debate over whether or not satanists should reply to such threads is the reason I told you to leave.

This is childish. We don't need sarcasm in a thread that obviously doesn't need it. If your argument is that darkness can not exist without light, you should realize that each have their own house. This is not the house which you seek.

Deplorable or not, you jumped in flirting towards Lady D. This is unnecessary and unwanted. I find that deplorable.

You act like a troll and how do you expect me to react? I'll take a page from Satan and kick you back to the cess pool from which you hail. You dare waltz in here and claim that all is fair in the internet, and simply by existing you have the right to spew your nonsense. Maybe I could post all of your quotes in which you posted unnecessary content? I would be glad to do so.

I spit in your eye.

[SWM]

etu, I believe there is a sub forum about Luciferians.

[EtuMalku]

Thank you, I will look into it

[ElNebuloso]

SWM

I spit in your eye

This seems a precursor to the eventual "chimpout".

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

Therefore you can not be conforming by being what you naturally are.

An excellent point, and one that I missed. Thanks.

[Stelionis Ignigenae]

Would the OP define what a Satanist is and I can go from there.

The Satanic Bible pretty much defines what A Satanist is, as Leviathan said. Others may agree with that or disagree, which is to be expected.



Also, would it be alright if a Luciferian participated here?

Here in this thread? I don't see why not.

The only point of my op was to ask people who don't even profess to be Satanists of any kind to not make sweeping statements as to what Satanism is, or who is a Satanist. That's all. Numerous people seem to think I've made posts trying to say who is or isn't a Satanist, or what Satanism is or isn't.

That is not what I said nor was it my intention. Just like I am sure you would not want people who do not even claim to be Luciferians going to that section of this board and declaring what Luciferianism is and who is a Luciferian. That's it, quite simple.

I can only take responsibility for the confusion, I must not be making this clear enough.

[Odin]

I have been reading all of this and watching and listening to what is being said.

some of us on this thread are trying to learn and not pass judgement on our fellow brothers though we follow different paths the baiting and the harassment will stop now and this is the last warning !!!!

everyone belongs here and are welcome but the ego stays at the door

[Thrnn]

I'm going to second the original post. 99% of the flaming in the original Satanist forum on the old OF was Satanists vs people who are not Satanists yet try to tell us what Satanism "really is". That and people who just don't seem to get "it" and have no idea what "it" is yet they persisted. I'm going to single out agedone on this one.