Pacts with Demons and Fallen Angels

[Azaziel]

Having had some success with evoking the demons of Lemegeton, quite unexpectedly while meditating one morning an entity introduced himself to me. After researching the name given, the entity turned out to be a Fallen Angel.

What I find interesting is that the demons of the Lemegeton don't seem interested in making pacts in the way that the Fallen Angels do. Instead of trading energy, the demons of Ars Goetia are subservient entities lost in the consciousness of a bygone era, reluctant servants bound by ancient pact. In contrast the Fallen Angels are free, willing and powerfully part of the global human consciousness.

If anyone has explored the Ars Goetia I think it might be a worthwhile thread to discuss why the original exorcist chose to bind these lesser demons instead of dealing with the Fallen Angels.

[Azaziel]

Here you go again putting forward your own ideas as truth. Even though what you say has no support in the actual scripture. You could at least say they are opinions and not facts.

Pact magic is not a common thing in the grimoires despite popular belief. One of the only ones dealing with it exclusively the Grand Grimoire or Le Dragon Rouge as it is also called. There is not even a need for making a pact if you know what you are doing. The demons in the Goetia are in most cases fallen angels and there is nothing lesser about them at all.

So they did not chose to bind lesser demons they are binding fallen angels. Have you never read an hierarchy over demons? Belial is far from a lesser demon. The reason for the demons they have chosen to use in their list is probably because it suited their needs. Demons have different functions and perform different tasks. So any demon list is usually a list of demons that the magician who wrote it needed to perform his wishes and needs.

Or as in the case of the Goetia and the other books of Lemegeton which is so called Solomonic grimoires it is based on the demons King Solomon legendary called up and bound to the vessel of brass. Read the testament of Solomon.

The Lemegeton is different though since it starts with the so called fallen angels and then go on to not fallen angels. The Goetia being book one, then comes Theurgia Goetia, then Ars Pauline or the Pauline Arts, followed by the Ars Almadel and finnish off with Ars Notoria or Ars Nova depending on who you want to believe in. There are different ideas on the fifth book.

Thanks to Crowley and then De Laurence who choose to call the Goetia the Lesser Key of Solomon many people are under the impression that it deals with lesser spirits which is incorrect and that the Lemegeton is just the Goetia which is also wrong.

MrK, why is it that everything you write quickly turns into a rant? I put this thread here for the specific purpose of engaging you in conversation because I know you are interested in Goetic magick. If all you can offer is regurgitating old hat from the position of an armchair magician then there is little conversation to be had.

Can you provide reference to binding Fallen Angels? And who is "they" that you are talking about, the Dragon Rouge?

[Azaziel]

Many that work traditionally with the Goetia will not receive a full physical evocation until they have gotten a real lion belt. It seems to be a very important key to getting the magic to work the way it is supposed to and it shows that even deviating the slightest from the original design of the grimoires without fully understanding how to replace a ritual item can destroy the entire thing.

Are you saying that you personally have evoked demons to physical manifestation?

[Azaziel]

As someone purporting to be a serious student of Goetia, I don't see how you can state that the Skinner/Rankine transcription of Sloane 307 is authoritative. The 'Dr Rudd' interpretation has not been widely accepted in the occult community.

There is also contradiction in what you say about Azazel if you are suggesting that the Fallen Angels were bound, but Azazel tricked Solomon into getting the ring so as to control the demons of the Lemegeton: Azazel himself is a Fallen Angel.

The fact is that no-one is binding Fallen Angels. You would be destroyed before you could bind them, the idea is just ridiculous. Further, it is well accepted that the legend of Solomon originally binding the demons is a myth.

[Azaziel]

Ohh yes and many others have done so as well. That is to say that they are still astral beings but they do get visible on our physical plane without any use of astral vision. That is the whole idea of evocation. You can even hurt them using the Sword of the art if it is properly made.


Well that's funny, because on your web site you posted:



Re: Visible appearence/physical manifestation
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 12:01:21 PM »

Well there are several theories on this one but at least from the Goetia you can obtain visible manifestation that looks physical. Many people I have spoken to have started to succeed with that after getting the lion belt. Not entirely sure if that is a major key or if it is just that you need to do it correctly for it to work. Personally I have seen lightning effects, shadowy shapes and shapes in smoke so far. I will let you know if it improves with a lion skin as soon as I can afford one:)

Visible appearence/physical manifestation (http://www.grimoiremagic.com/index.php?topic=27.msg54;topicseen#new)



So you haven't actually manifested anything, you just imagined some shadowy shapes in incense smoke didn't you? More likely the demon CO than Bael.

You strike me as a charlatan, MrK.

[Azaziel]

I did not say it was authoritative did I? It was an example of a theory that has recently been started to be discussed seriously that perhaps the shemhamporesh angels correspond to the 72 demons. Personally I find the theory interesting but I do not think it was meant to be used like that. The Goetia still has instruction on how to build and use the brass vessel to bind the demons though. That you can not deny.

No contradiction at all. Solomon did not bind all the fallen angels according to legend. Azazel was simply not one of the bounded angels. Of course it is a myth but the Goetia and Key of Solomon is still based on this myth. Same thing with 6th and 7th books of Moses. They are also based on myth but have been practiced successfully for a long time anyway.

Of course you can bind a demon in the brass vessel, many have done so.

You are wrong though about the Skinners and Rankines book being accepted. It is accepted for what it is. Dr Rudds version of how he worked with the Lemegeton. Nothing more nothing less. If you want one that is not altered in any way the closest you will get is Joseph Petersons edition. Mathers translation was terrible booth of the Goetia and of the Key of Solomon.

So, basically you are just talking out of your arse, aren't you?

[Azaziel]

LOL well I have done some stuff since august you know and I got the money thru my spell to afford the skin:)

What "stuff" have you done since August, exactly?

[ZeldaFitz]

Listen, instead of attacking personally, don't you think it would be better, to discuss in a more intellectual way, instead of name calling? I am not defending anyone, but MrK is speaking the truth on whom he knows, and if you ask the ones he is naming, they will verify. It is early here, but I am assuming it is later for you two. Keep it pithy!

[Azaziel]

Listen, instead of attacking personally, don't you think it would be better, to discuss in a more intellectual way, instead of name calling?

That would be nice, but MrK apparently isn't capable of intellectual discussion.

[ZeldaFitz]

That would be nice, but MrK apparently isn't capable of intellectual discussion.

Oh my, oh my. Please try to keep it clean.

[Azaziel]

Well go ahead and ask David Rankine if I am speaking out of my ass. Or Stephen Skinner if you prefer to do that.

We have just established that your heros are not authoritative so asking them about your own poor understanding of magick is superfluous.

[Azaziel]

I made him angry and now hes trying to find whatever he can come up with to try and discredit me. I have come up against many people like him before. All writers do. The funny thing is that I have been perfectly honest about not having succeeded before to get physical manifestation and just recently managed to do it. No secret since it is on my blog. I have not had energy to update it since the evocation though since it took a lot of energy on my part and I need time to recover. There are other news I need to put up on the blog when I get my energy back as well. David just did an interview and credited me as one of the people that helped him come to the conclusion that the Key of Solomon most likely was used as a primer for magicians back in the day. So what he thinks he is exposing is beyond my understanding.


I am not angry, I just think you are lying about your abilities. You are a charlatan who hides behind other people's published ideas to protect your own fragile ego.

[Azaziel]

Ehh not authoritative? Are you retarded or something. They are together with Joseph Peterson the best scholars there is today on the subject. Anyone who claims anything else is a utter moron.

Or maybe there are people out there who don't follow blindly the pseudo-cults of charismatic people.

Review: Practical Angel Magic - Updated (http://www.themagickalreview.org/reviews/practical-angel-magic-update/)

[Azaziel]

Other peoples ideas? Do you think I am publishing other peoples ideas in the books I have been a part of? It must demand training to become as ignorant as you:)

I haven't read anything you have published, but I am guessing that your claim to fame of one chapter in a book is the same tripe you have been posting here. So far you haven't come up with anything original, your responses revolve around your argument that you are better read than anyone else here - which clearly isn't the case - and when in a corner have tried to hide behind the work of other dubious writers.


You don't convince me of having anything worthwhile to contribute to the occult community at all.

[Azaziel]

About reviews. Look at the book you claim is not accepted in the occult:)

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The Goetia of Dr Rudd: The Angels & Demons of Liber Malorum Spirituum Seu Goetia Lemegeton Clavicula Salomanis with a study of the techniques of evocation ... context of (Sourceworks of Ceremonial Magic) (http://www.amazon.com/Goetia-Rudd-techniques-Sourceworks-Ceremonial/product-reviews/0954763920/ref=cm_cr_pr_link_2?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&pageNumber=2&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending)

Both Poke Runnyon and Mark Stavish giving it 5 stars. Yea all the really famous people just hate that book:)

You really are starting to bore me. Run along now, will you.

[ZeldaFitz]

I am at a loss here, as MrK has been as clear as possible and honest in my opinion. I at first thought it was agreeing to disagree, but now it is starting to look as if someone has an ax to grind, and it is not MrK. Why this is, I do not know. I am asking that everyone please try to be respectful and calm down a bit. Thank you.