How To

[Natasha77]

I know, I know, many people ask the question. I've practiced magick for years but astral travel has been the fish that's got away! I understand how much there is to learn in the astral and the amazing possibilities that exist.

But, please, in your own words, how does one astral project?

thanks,
natasha

[Phnouthis]

Due to a variety of stressful circumstances that have surrounded my life over the last few years, I cannot claim any recent projections. Nevertheless, in better times, my method was simply to lie down on my back, and relax my body as completely as possible--any remaining somatic tension will prove an impediment to the process. You will know that you are on the right track when you start to feel like you are falling straight down and you hear this repetitive--sometimes frightening--rushing sound. In my experience, if one can endure these phenomena without panicking, the projection happens pretty much automatically.

There is an excellent book by Robert Bruce called Mastering Astral Projection (or something like that); his exercises are the best I've ever seen.

If you are more comfortable with ritual, you could go about it in that way. There was an Aurum Solis lunar ritual I was doing regularly a few years ago that pretty much guaranteed that I would experience at least the tell-tale signs of projection, when not projection itself, almost every night, at some time in the course of my sleep.

Regardless of what method you choose to pursue, the best preparation you can give yourself is to find and start practicing a body relaxation technique.

[Natasha77]

Thanks both of you. I do have that book, which is a great book. For the past many years I've had severe depression. Only recently have I had this chemical imbalance balanced. Serotonin is finely flowing correctly. Due to the imbalance I believe that is what has caused the complete failure of past attempts. Now I am balanced and healthy, so, I assume this puts me at even ground with projecting.

[angeress]

What I first of all is doing is creating a mediatation tactic and using the colour techinque, but I will try the lightbulb method soon. Very good post and something to really consider well.

[Belphebe]

Candle method is a good one, here is a little trick, picture a foot or a hand projecting from the physical and project it as far as you can, when you can not project any more snap the astral arm or foot back you will actually feel it if you are doing it right. practice makers perfect. Astral travel is traveling to different places and the astral realms, astral project is leaving the body. I can do it, but I prefer the physical instead of running around out of my body. My friend Eddy teaches astral travel, she taught me.

[zero]

here is the first method that I was able to detach.

imagine a ball of light in front of you. Now imagine it filling you from the feet up this can be a long process and it has to be concentrated(concentration). this has to be real in your conscious mind, it is there, there is no doubt. the next step would be to raise your arm (astrally) and look at it, move it, this is your arm. now the hard part you have to detach your mind with your body, but the previous steps should ground that. it takes a lot of practice and concentration to astral project, and is by no means an easy thing to do.

hope this helps

[Phnouthis]

Thanks both of you. I do have that book, which is a great book. For the past many years I've had severe depression. Only recently have I had this chemical imbalance balanced. Serotonin is finely flowing correctly. Due to the imbalance I believe that is what has caused the complete failure of past attempts. Now I am balanced and healthy, so, I assume this puts me at even ground with projecting.


I don't want to probe Natasha, and I most certainly will not take offense if you choose to ignore this post, but I must ask: What makes you so sure that your depression was caused, simpliciter, by a chemical imbalance? (As someone who is frequently plagued by this same devil, let me also say, I'm glad to hear that the dark clouds have given way to a triumphant sun.)

[Natasha77]

Dealing with it for over ten years, even after applying every therapy/spirituality I can get my hands on. Finally, after giving in, becoming aware that I can't fix it by myself, medication has helped tremendously. After all, every state of mind is just a result of chemicals.

[Phnouthis]

Dealing with it for over ten years, even after applying every therapy/spirituality I can get my hands on. Finally, after giving in, becoming aware that I can't fix it by myself, medication has helped tremendously. After all, every state of mind is just a result of chemicals.

But one could equally argue that at least some neurochemical states are the effects of mental states. But before I continue just let me say that I am in no way opposed to the use of psychopharmaceutics for the treatment of most psychiatric disorders, including depression. I can only speak from my own case perhaps, and given that, I could definitely say that there were very real and tenable judgments that I was making--though some were implicit in other, less emotive judgments--about the world around me, that thusly constructed that world into a very unpleasant place. Many of these judgments were surely more defensible than the more optimistic judgments of my peers upon the same external facts; indeed, I began to feel that those around me preferred a continued state of coping over a confrontation with the facts as they stood--how certain they were; without any need to search or probe further--and the consequent estrangement that I felt from my peers made me even more miserable (I could honestly say that I would have been glowingly elated if I would have found companions of a similar disposition.) But I am off topic. How do you reconcile your belief in magic (that "mind" can influence matter, with your conviction that mental phenomena, at best, are mere results, mere "epiphenomena" of brain states?

[daecon]

Here's my preferred method of astral projection:

You will need: a space that can be made private, a candle and matches. The ritual can be done seated, at a table or in lotus position, but should not be done lying down. (You don't want to fall asleep)

Cleanse and consecrate a sacred space, and prepare for spellwork according to your school of magic. Extinguish all light sources except for a single lit candle. Relax and draw your consciousness up through the chakras and concentrate it into the sahasrara (crown.) Draw your consciousness out through the sahasrara toward the candle to form the astral cord. When the cord is fully extended, extinguish the candle. This leaves the terminus of the cord free to form the astral body. The astral body is you, for all relevant purposes, and connected through the cord to your physical body. Movement through the astral realm is a matter of visualization and will.

[Phnouthis]

"To engage Phnouthis for a moment; do you not think that severe mental things maybe caused by entities which maybe pushed away by drugs? the brains chemical reactions are a manifestation of spiritual energy. by the same token if u can effect your brain it may effect the energy and make it 'not so tastey'."

I have good reason to think so. About 7 years ago, I was helping my neighbor at the time (he was also my friend and employer), George, install insulation in an attic-like upper room which we had just built as part of a new addition on his house. After lunch, I took about four puffs from his bowl, and then went upstairs to resume my work. After a short while, I began to see my thoughts in front of me, as if on a television screen: I witnessed an image of my mom's boyfriend transmorph into a solar-radiant, benevolent figure handing gifts out to little children, and thence into the roadrunner, with his characteristic, "meep meep." I started to laugh hysterically, but upon reflection I couldn't tell if I were laughing out loud, of if I were simply laughing internally. My inability to settle on a conclusion made me somewhat uneasy, and the next thing I knew, my own bodily appearance was beginning to take on a cartoonish form--I was growing the snout of an animated moose. I couldn't stop it; I exclaimed to myself: "Holy ****, I'm turning into Bowinkle." I rushed downstairs, intent on telling my boss that I had to go home, that I was turning into an animated moose, into Bowinkle. After reciting this to myself, I realized how ridiculous I was being; the hallucination had already ceased, so I went back upstairs to resume my work. As I began cutting the insulation, however, there descended upon me this compulsion to slash myself with the box cutter I was using. As I fought to dismiss such thoughts, they only became stronger, until, in panic, I dropped the box cutter, and deliberated about whether I should go home after all. After recovering my sense, I would then pick up the box cutter and resume my work--I repeated this process several times. Eventually, the compulsions became so powerful and present that I felt them around me, as if they had coalesced into a separate and intelligent entity that was ubiquitous around me; my panic reached its zenith, but as I erected myself to deliberate again, I didn't drop the box cutter, and as I peered down that darkended, long attic room, I felt that presence of pure wickedness that permeates the ambience of the best horror movies--but suddenly the compulsion changed its target, pronouncing its intent within me with that degree of clarity and decisiveness that characterizes the most definite thoughts: "Go downstairs, and slash George." I was horrified! I fought and writhed, and argued with it, but it was much more clever, and was able to use "my own" mind to manipulate my objections by instantaneously calling into question the background assumptions of those objections, even before they could articulate themselves to my representational understanding (this is perhaps why the devils are considered fallen angels, not just nature spirits; they have higher-than-human mentality, but with the instinctual set of the fiercest natural predator). This went on for quite sometime, and my attention on this aspect of "my" consciousness, did reveal it to my interpretation as a distinct and foreign entity that had somehow infiltrated my barriers. Needless to say, arguing with it entagled me more into its web, for, as I reflected at the time, it was itself supplying me with the combative spirit by which I could argue; argument, fighting, hostility, and the like were its very nature. Eventually, after realizing that I couldn't fight it, I resolved to maintain the "happy thought," no matter what it threatened or attempted; after meeting with success by this method, I stumbled upon the close association of the sun whose rays were breaking through the octogonal window above me, and the happy thought which appeared to be my only salvation. At length, the "devil" went away; I burst out laughing, with the intuition that somehow, the whole universe was emanating from my heart.


I do not think that the depression itself is an evil spirit, but, rather, that depression can be the psychological symptom in our organism of the active presence of such a spirit. Nevertheless, for those who follow the Path of the Serpent, I do not see how periodic bouts of depression can be avoided.

If I were indeed a Magus, I would have to conclude that the manifestation of anti-depressants in the human sphere is brought about by spirits--and is, in some way, inseparable from their ever active, creative organization of matter. I am not inclined to think, however, that these entities are pushed away; intead I would say that we have chemically altered the activities of the emotional/instictual layers of our psyche in such a way, that we are no longer capable of making that confrontation with those aspects of existence which dropped our confidence, certainty, and thus joy in the first place; we have, as it were, and at best, found a way of returning to those more pleasant areas of cognition, those more in accordance with the emotional needs of our creaturely selves. However, my assessment would not cover all types of depression, as "depression" is merely a name for a collection of symptoms that can have a variety of different causal histories.

[Natasha77]

First let me say I am not completely an atheist or physicalist. I do value and appreciate their paradigm and personally uphold Reason. I find that in the spiritual community, whether it be witches or magicians or whatever, Reason gets thrown out of the window. There is a thin line between fantasy and magick. Personally I balance Reason with Spirituality, both are invaluable. Call it the best of both worlds. I can be just as much an atheist as a witch.

As for pharm drugs to treat the brain. Fortunately this one has not had any adverse effects. True Will guided me to the correct help to achieve the best results and solve this problem. Not all drugs have the same effect obviously. It may take time to find the 'correct' one to treat the brain. One thing I find most often is that people think the drug is a fix all. To me, there is a separation between Mind and Brain. For the longest I have practiced cognitive therapy, optimism, buddhist principals, and other positive cognitive processes to enhance the Mind. But the Brain, the physical thing itself, was not operating properly. Now I can say my Mind AND Brain are on the same page. A drug without proper spiritual/philosophical/psychological guidance to assist cannot fix it all.

Back to throwing Reason out of the window. When people first point to spirits or demons or thought forms or curses as the source of mental illness, to me, is similar to the Dark Ages or the Puritan days. We now know the origins of many illnesses and how to treat them. I am not saying a curse or spirit or whatever cannot cause depression/suicide/etc, but I would say it is much rarer than the tv shows put on. I have also met individuals who are mentally ill and drug addicts who ATTRACT negative energy/spirits. But removing the spirit did nothing. It is the person who must be helped. There is also the role of karma. Also, a person may believe that a solution to mental illness is for it to heal through a spiritual means. This is incorrect as well. True Will manifests in the most practical manner, even if it be in finding proper professional help.

For someone who is depressed, look into cognitive therapy and thinking optimistically or spirituality, if that doesn't help, consult a professional, but blaming a spirit/demon/curse wouldn't be the most practical solution unless the person has been witness to some extreme paranormal events.

It has been interesting but a very powerful experience balancing atheism/Reason and magickal practice. My own depression was inherited. My Father and Grandfather has various illnesses/symptoms. Again, science/genetics, sheds light.

Great convo!

[Phnouthis]

Natasha: I am not exactly sure about how much of what you wrote was a direct response to my last post, much less a set of objections thereto, but I will nonetheless orient my response around the specific points that you make, trying to glean what I take to be counterclaims against my points as best as I can; though, for the most part, I am in an enthusiastic accordance with much of what you say.

"I find that in the spiritual community, whether it be witches or magicians or whatever, Reason gets thrown out of the window. There is a thin line between fantasy and magick."

Here I wholeheartedly agree. Moreover, I would add that it's precisely this escape into fantasy, this cowardly retreat from clear thinking, that castrates the actual spiritual efficacy of our tradition, and prevents us from recognizing and cauterizing the inherent dangers therein. Although most modern occultists appear to lack the philosophical training or the authenticity of aspiration to truly devote themselves to a thorough study of the seminal texts of the tradition, the exaltation of reason--not the suppression thereof--to the "divine intelligence" (Greek: nous[I]) was, in fact, the purpose of theurgic ritual according to the recognizable progenitors of our tradition.


"As for pharm drugs to treat the brain. Fortunately this one has not had any adverse effects."

Which one is it? I've heard very good things about Lexapro.

"True Will guided me to the correct help to achieve the best results and solve this problem."

I believe you.

"For the longest I have practiced cognitive therapy, optimism, buddhist principals, and other positive cognitive processes to enhance the Mind. But the Brain, the physical thing itself, was not operating properly."

I do not, however, agree with your line of reasoning here. In fact, I am inclined to impute the cause of the persistence of your problem precisely to these methods of optimistic brainwashing. So I would not, thereafter, conclude that "the brain" wasn't operating properly; I would rather say that such optimistic brainwashing does violence to the integrity or wholeness of the psyche, that those negative judgements about the world must be met on their own terms, and not automatically dosed with self-deception--I find cognitive therapy especially shallow and irritating.

"When people first point to spirits or demons or thought forms or curses as the source of mental illness, to me, it is similar to the Dark Ages or the Puritan days."

It is indeed similar, but not identical. Furthermore, the attribution of daimonic causes to various maladies does not in anyway obviate the necessity of an observable physical symptom set for those maladies. From my experience with spirits and the astral plane, I personally cannot even comprehend a causal chasm between the physical and subtle worlds, and yet--as we agreed in our responses to the "Reality Manipulation" thread--the spiritual doesn't collapse or in any way subsume, the ordinary causal order of the physical world. With mental illnesses the situation is, however, often very different, as in such cases the attack comes from a level of ontological primacy. But please notice that in my last post I spoke in qualification, stating in so many words that surely not all cases of mental illness were actualized by that sort of demonic interference of which I accounted in my narrative.

"We now know the origins of many illnesses and how to treat them."

I disagree when it comes to psychiatric disorders; in fact, psychiatry is often criticized by medical researchers as having the least theoretical justfication for its treatment methods. Additionally, there is no conclusive theory organizing all of the various data relevant to a diagnosis of schizophrenia--and some researchers often prefer to say "the schizophrenias." Furthermore, the more refined "spiritists" theories of physical disorders did not, again, preclude a physically observable cause; spirits were not thought of as being the direct causes of a physical illness (for even the vikings believed that sickness was caused by microscopic "serpents"), but rather responsible for that person, getting that illness, at that time.

"I have also met individuals who are mentally ill and drug addicts who ATTRACT negative energy/spirits. But removing the spirit did nothing. It is the person who must be helped."

Yep, there is little point in throwing the spirit out onto the street while afterwards allowing the door to remain open.

"Also, a person may believe that a solution to mental illness is for it to heal through a spiritual means. This is incorrect as well."

I am not sure what you mean here by a "spiritual means."

"True Will manifests in the most practical manner, even if it be in finding proper professional help."

I agree.

"It has been interesting but a very powerful experience balancing atheism/Reason and magickal practice."

I just don't understand how reason and "atheism" are mutually implicit.

"My own depression was inherited. My Father and Grandfather has various illnesses/symptoms. Again, science/genetics, sheds light."

I feel odd speculating about your family members, but the inherited trait need not be say, a seritonin deficiency, but could equally well be more a complexity of factors such as a discerning intellect, above-average creative ability, or a tendency towards individualism--and please notice that in different environments, these factors need not lead to depression.



Great convo![/QUOTE]

[Natasha77]

I don't mean brainwashing optimism like Mr. Rogers. I try to see things as they are, with as little emotional bias as possible. It's a matter of positive thinking. I can either believe that I will succeed in college or tell myself/believe I will fail in college. Both create belief and emit energy. A tape recorder in my head talking negatively will not help me. Then again, I don't have to look in the mirror everyday and tell myself I am beautiful, lol. It's "processing information in a rational positive manner."

Environment does and has played a part in depression etc. Antidepressants may not be necessary forever. It does give my brain the proper serotonin to feel good and handle life easier. The drug is Celexa btw. To me, it is not a matter of how it got this way, as it matters how to get it better.

By "spiritual healing", I mean healing mental illness by willpower or spiritual means. For too long I tried to "fix it and handle it myself" with not much success. Although I learned incredible things in the process.

Atheism and Reason are not ALWAYS mutual. There are plenty of irrational dogmatic atheists not much different than a fundamentalist Christian. But the atheists I do admire and read uphold science and Reason. To me, Reason is the "Prometheus Flame". Or at least an aspect of it. Or as you stated, the Greeks believe the Psych/Reason is a gift from the Gods. That theurgy is to come to "Divine Genius". This is how I perceive the Higher Self/Ego. The healthy confident Ego/Intellect Genius. Therefore, to keep the Mind bright and burning like a flame is to do the same with Spirit.

The Brain and illnesses are indeed still being pioneered which is why I find it so fascinating. The Brain/Mind is still being debated and explored.

As for fantasy escapism....ehhh....that's sometimes why Atheism is a breath of fresh air after talking to wiccans or pompous magicians for a long time, lol

[Phnouthis]

Natasha: All of it, incredibly well said:)

(Ah, I also cultivate a healthy interest in the academic consciousness studies disciplines, especially in the particular area of my own academic training, the philosophy of mind. In fact, my own physicalist inclinations met a quick death once I became acquainted with the desperate intellectual acrobatics through which physicalist philosophers such as Churchland, Ryle, and the infamous but ever amusing Daniel C. Dennett, were willing to contort themselves, simply to avoid the far reaching ramifications of the irreducibility of the phenomenal aspects of consciousness (qualia). Notice, though, that this is exactly where transcendental metaphysical systems would predict physical causal explanations, along with reductionism, to run into trouble.)

[Natasha77]

Let me rephrase that, I do not believe "magickal healing" is necessary or practical in all manners. A person can try to achieve healing through magick or use magick to point them in the right direction of the correct doctor/help. To me, I find the latter more practical. Mental illnesses, in my experiences and others, is incredibly tricky to "magickally heal". Don't get me wrong. I do believe in healing, but only in dire cases. I have witnessed and have been taught healing, although it is not my forte or my passion.

lol, I like what you said about Dennet and other physicalist. They do try to contort theory after theory to explain the Mind and fail utterly. That is why I have came to the conclusion that, most of all, the Mind is the greatest magickal source we have. All is Mind.

[Phnouthis]

"I do not believe "magickal healing" is necessary or practical in all manners. A person can try to achieve healing through magick or use magick to point them in the right direction of the correct doctor/help. To me, I find the latter more practical. Mental illnesses, in my experiences and others, is incredibly tricky to "magickally heal"."

First, I think it would be useful to set a demarcation between mental illness, or maladies of psychological origin, and brain disorders, which would have prominently psychological symptoms, but of which the etiology could only be successfully discovered in organic malfunctions. With that said, I tend to think that mental illness proper need not necessarily be considered so negatively; perhaps it is only in a culture wherein external, social and economic functioning is so vital and idealogically reinforced that mental illness can take on such a higher-order negative evaluation from its sufferers, so that those so afflicted are not put in a position to acquire the requisite resources for their improvement, but, instead, only to amplify their problems by hating themselves for feeling crippled in their aspirations to live up the the standards imposed upon them. It could be argued that man's attempts to account for his intrinsic feelings of anxiety and emptiness are what have compelled his greastest and most sublime testimonies to the uniqueness and inexplicability of his condition. His religion, philosophy, and art have sprung from his discontentment with his immediately accessible possibilities of identification: awakening to that longing to be something more than a rationally efficient animal but not fully aware of the essence of that longing and thus despairing, man has deferred the impetus for instant gratification that his mere animal self counts as sufficient, and has risked his most basic well-being on the chance that, maybe, if his aspiration is cultivated, if it doesn't fail and collapse him into an irremediable hopelessness, that he, even he, might just come to recognize that the object of his transcendental longings is a reality, that the longing itself only existed because its object had already made itself present to him, somehow. I really despise all of this "modern" psychological pampering, as if a person should simply be a joyous little puppy without any sort of critical questioning about the fundamental terror with which his circumstances present themselves to him. If what I believe is in anyway true, if our lives do instantiate a series of transcendental processes that, in a way perhaps only fully realizable in abstraction from the human plane, could be rightfully called initiations, then we do ourselves little favor by nourishing our obsession for some superlative happiness, healing, and, to mimic Nietzsche's Zarathustra, "wretched contentment."

"That is why I have come to the conclusion that, most of all, the Mind is the greatest magickal source we have. All is Mind."

lol, Here you definitely don't sound like much of an atheist!

[Natasha77]

There are plenty to talk about in that reply. Hopefully I understood what you were stating.

There are psychological negatives that can be eased and transformed by therapy, philosophy, or having a fulfilling spirituality. These negatives not being based on organic imbalances but moreso external events/environment, or "bad thinking".

Contentment leads to stagnation. I do not believe one should be a joyful little puppy. At one time I hated myself for not progressing fast enough in life. No matter what I accomplished I was still below my ideal. I knew no contentment, but being a person of "becoming" and self-actualization the concept of contentment was weak. Then, coming out of depression and seeing the reality, it is not to have ABSOLUTE contentment, but I find appreciation/contentment for what I do have and have accomplished which allows me to become/progress in a positive beneficial manner. Contentment in the moment while still hungering for more.

Same goes for happiness. Many aim for a pot of gold..."if I had this I would be happy...". I have learned, why not be happy NOW and then? Being happy now certainly helps me achieve goals at a faster rate than being unhappy.

As for feelings of anxiety and nihilism, such an existential crisis is necessary, at least in my opinion, to find one's self/True Will and drive one to develop/explore/discover. "Dark Nights" are necessary for growth.

There is a line between "psychological pampering" and practical therapy. The line being what results manifest. Pampering would not lead to long-last positive results. Speaking for myself, the imbalances/clinical depression, has been a curse and a gift in my life. It has been the vehicle to the bottom of the pit, to nihilism, to spiritual searching, to severe critical thinking, to incredibly dark places in the mind/spirit. At the same time it has been a handicap and obstacle against achieving goals and being an emotionally sound and positive individual. Mentall illnesses do not always have to be perceived as such a negative thing. To me, it is a morbid gift, a challenge/opportunity for great growth.

As for not sounding Atheist. All is Mind can be seen as a solipsistic way, that reality is Maya/Illusion that is malleable to one's will. This is my spiritual perspective.

But from an atheist point of view, the Mind is our greatest asset, and if there is anything worth investing time/energy into, it is the Mind. To me, the Mind wasted is a truly terrible loss to Self and humanity.

[Phnouthis]

First let me just say that it is a pleasure to converse with you:)

"There are psychological negatives that can be eased and transformed by therapy, philosophy, or having a fulfilling spirituality. These negatives not being based on organic imbalances but moreso external events/environment, or "bad thinking"."

I will not attempt to refute what you say above as I do not disagree with you. I would, nevertheless, like to add that there is a sharp difference between thinking "right" effortlessly, and filtering or manipulating one's occurrent thinking so as to make it conform with a set of therapeutic, philosophical, or spiritual standards (I mean in cases distinct from those in which one simply edits thoughts with "false" or improbable assumptions in accordance with already established "true" or more plausible principles). A confession must be made however: I am not permitted to affect my thinking with any cognitive action save for the desire for truth. They:eek: would silence me in instant if I came into the arena of mind with the sole or even primary purpose of affecting my thoughts in order to give the organism a more emotionally comfortable state. Sucks being me;)

"As for not sounding Atheist. All is Mind can be seen as a solipsistic way, that reality is Maya/Illusion that is malleable to one's will. This is my spiritual perspective."

lol, And just when I was coming under the impression that what I was reading were my very own words! I personally do not see how a tenable solispsist position can be propounded without resorting to far-out, epistemelogically skeptical scenarios. Moreover, "All is Mind" need not mean (should not mean!) that all phenomena are nothing but different modalities of one's individual, particularized mind, as the solipsist would have it. I myself do not regard the phenomenal world as an illusion--after all it could only be so if one construed it as something that it is not--; I think that at least the physical properties that we perceive in the phenomenal world are, indeed, the intrinsic properties--not to say, the only properties--of the various external objects. On top of all this, the solipsist is left with the heavy burden of explaining just how the various "modalities" of mentality that are normally not recognized as being of the mental, are in fact "hypostases" of her core referent: mind.

"But from an atheist point of view, the Mind is our greatest asset, and if there is anything worth investing time/energy into, it is the Mind. To me, the Mind wasted is a truly terrible loss to Self and humanity."

I couldn't begin to prescribe a primary goal to which all human effort ought to be devoted, but I would say, in my own case, that it is the Divine--though this concept does undoubtedly entail the mind (Amusingly, among the Neoplatonists noeton (intelligible by nous or transcendental intellect, but also the objectified aspect of nous, as nous was considered to be in a certain identity with its objects) and theion (divine) were synonyms. Nonetheless, the Neoplatonists did not consider nous an aspect of the psyche but rather present to the psyche by being its very foundational principle, or hyparxis--the Gods, however, were to them, essentially nous. The highest type of reasoning within the essential powers of psyche, according to these philosophers, was dianoia, which they believed to find its clearest expression in mathematics, where the human mind apprehends its own inherent functions. Ordinary practical and syllogistic reasoning was the function of logismos, mere reckoning through ideas instantiated in images.)
).

[Natasha77]

It has been a pleasure conversing with you as well.

There is that rhetorical question, "What is sane?". I suppose every person, group, and discipline has it's own answer. For me, it is rationality, similar to Stoicism. That my intellect/rationality dictate my emotions, rather than the opposite. I prefer to see the truth and see reality for what really is. Also to have the discipline and emotional intelligence to respond in a positive way to that. To Become, to progress, to hunger, to fuel the Inner Flame without my own emotions playing against True Will.

I suppose my view of the Universe lies somewhere between an Atheist's view and Hinduism. The Hindus believe the Universe is Maya. It is, in essence, energy, and we perceive that energy as the world around us. We are in a collective dream. All connected yet separate. We can either have a confused distorted ego wrapped up in attachment, maya, and repeating karma...or we can transcend, develop a healthy ego, learn non-attachment, and see reality. Magick is when Maya is altered by Self. True Will is the innermost connection to the Whole and one's "perfect winds/course" to progress. Unlike the RHP, I follow basic LHP principals focusing on Individualism, Self as God, and the older darker primal forces of spirituality. In easier words, Luciferian.

How that is slightly atheist is that I find "magick" to be just as much part of Nature as physics. And also, MUCH of magick/ritual are psychological methods to produce change in psyche.

What you said about NeoPlatoism resonates well with me. Do you have any solid resources on that philosophy?

[Phnouthis]

"To Become, to progress, to hunger, to fuel the Inner Flame without my own emotions playing against True Will."

How do you view the relationship between your emotions, intellect, and True Will?

"Unlike the RHP, I follow basic LHP principals focusing on Individualism, Self as God, and the older darker primal forces of spirituality. In easier words, Luciferian."

This is interesting: What is the "Self" to you? Moreover, by "darker primal forces" do you mean instinctual forces or something in one way or another, significantly different? While I do also place a premium on individualism, I personally cannot realistically appropriate for myself the traditional attributes of a deity, nor have I ever been acquainted with or heard of anyone who credibly could. Perhaps I am biased here, as I do lean towards a theological model--although let me be clear, it does not originate in a commitment to the worn out old religions, but rather a theophanic experience from my adolescence that I reintegrated into memory during an intensive regimen of ritual work back in 2006.


"What you said about NeoPlatoism resonates well with me. Do you have any solid resources on that philosophy?"

Fortunately, there has been a recent surge of interest in Neoplatonism and related subfields over the last decade or so among classicists, thus there is a quickly accumulating corpus of both secondary literature and translations of primary texts. If you would like to get your feet wet by reading primary text material, then I would recommend either Plotinus' Enneads or a compilation of excerpts from the whole spectrum of authors recently released by John Dillon, I think it is called Neoplatonism: Introductory Readings. If, however, you are looking to first pique your interest further before making a study commitment (the nuances of Neoplatonic thought are notoriously difficult), then I would recommend connecting your inquiries to your already established magical interests, in which case, I cannot recommend too highly Iamblichus' On the Mysteries--I have to say it, De Mysteriis is, in my opinion, the single best theoretical treastise on high magic ever written, anywhere, by anyone (I should probably also note that Ken Wilber, who is otherwise obsessively sympathetic with Eastern traditions, refers to Plotinus as the greatest mystical philosopher of all time). I think at Twilit Grotto you can find Talyor's largely unintelligible translation of De Mysteriis (the Clark, Dillon, Hershbell translation is in many ways superb, but it is not online), as well as a decent translation of Proclus' Elements of Theology--though I do not recommend the latter as a starting text.

If, however, you would like first to familiarize yourself with the basic ideas from secondary literature, I think you might be able to find Whitaker's Neoplatonism online at archive.org--but you could also just go to the online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and look up 'Neoplatonism'. (But of course, you are already familiar with at least some philosophical principles drawn from Neoplatonic authors, as Neoplatonism serves as the philosophical foundation for Christian, Islamic, and Jewish mysticism.)

[Natasha77]

Thanks for those resources.

Once one has realized True Will it is vital to align mind/body/spirit with that. To me, True Will is like True Love. We go through many relationships before we find that True Love. We go through many "courses of life" until we find the destined course which is True Will. And as said, "then the Universe will throw it's weight behind you." We must continually Become. Whether this be achieving in the mundane, or learning, or growing spiritually. Self is everything that composes me. Primarily the Core Self/Inner "Higher" Self, or "God Self".

I don't recognize a Prime God. There is only the Universe as a Whole with the many currents within. I am the Goddess of my own Life and World. I respect external spirits/deities as currents/deific masks to assist/aid/grow stronger from. They are both teachers and sources of power. The darker forces I refer to are darker deities such as Hekate, Lilith, Ahriman, Akoman, Lamashtu, the Tree of Death and Qliphoth therein etc. Primarily the structure of the Order of Phosphorus.

[Phnouthis]

You are welcome!

I apologize if I seem unnecessarily disputatious; I have already been so regarded in these forums:) But as we have received this notion of a True Will, as far as I can gather, from Aleister Crowley--and keeping in mind his apparent aversion for interpretative analysis--I am just always so curious, What is this "True Will" that is spoken of, and does a sensible interpretation of the evidence support our conceptualization of such a seemingly grandiose principle?

"I don't recognize a Prime God. There is only the Universe as a Whole with the many currents within."

I myself do not recognize any sort of "Prime God," as existing beyond our conceptualization but, again, the conceptualization implies an essential unity to the cosmos, in refutation of the seeming random happenstance of the ordinary course of events. Thus, and I tentatively suggest that only thus, can we conceive of a Providence extending an overarching meaning through the course of the mundane, the "events." However, I did say that I do not recognize a Monotheos existing beyond the level of our own conceptual projections:

(The following is a memory that was reintegrated during a strenuous program of Liber Helios, The Star Ruby and Sapphire, Liber Reguli, an Aurum Solis lunar prayer, prayers to Hekate Soteira, and a disciplined raja yoga regimen that I undertook at full intensity from 2006 to 2007--it was like a full-time job!)

I was eleven years old, walking home from school in Pearl River, New York. We had just finished the fall of Rome in my sixth-grade, world history class. All of a sudden I became aware of a "collection of minds" represented in a mental space above the the "space" that my body inhabits when I mentally conceive of it, whenever I do so and for whatever reason. There was no feeling of awe or splendor; my attitude was like the pure intellectual detachment of the mathematician. At this time, I had undergone no training in the occult, nor did I have any literary familiarity therewith. However, I said to myself without reflecting, "It's the Gods!". At the vocalization of the plural "Gods," the process of association brought my mind to the Greek gods. As soon as I conceived of the Greek gods, my mind must have, for some reason or another, focused on Artemis enough so that I actually thought of Artemis with such sustained focus that I saw her projected into space before me. But my mind had the template of the "minds" above me, so I then said to myself, "But these are not images in human form, they are most like my own thinking, only grander." For some reason, after this thought, I said to myself, "Wait, but there is only one God." But this itself was, indeed, a projection, and Those above my own, somatically localized thinking were somehow, unified, but not one and only one--so I thought of what exactly could be their distinguishing feature, but every distinction I made was immediately projected before me in the form of an image, and being not identical to Them, was immediate refuted. It's like everyone "one" was a unity with every other "one," and yet, They were not only one in the sense of being only, as opposed to not only, one--it wasn't a mindgame though, they were, somehow, distinct; it's just that, again somehow, they were more independent of my experience of them, more so than even the physical world. But suddenly, I felt this great "dark" infinity behind the physical objects of perception, and I was filled with a great dread. But it came to me that They controlled everything, even me. Nonetheless I said to myself: "Any moment I am going to die"--the thought was localized in my heart; this was my first recollectable panic attack; but I didn't panic in my behavior, for the thought happened so deeply in my heart that the panic was cut off from the actionability of my body. I panicked but I still perceived Them. I am not sure, at the current time, of how I drew my conclusions, but it soon occurred to me that if I could just stop my thoughts, everything would be ok, I would ascend to Them. I then thought about whether I could become Them, but immediately I was confronted with the thought, that as long as I could be not Them, I could never be Them. But I could ascend to a greater contact with them--I needed to stop my thoughts, but the thoughts kept coming from my body. The thought of a Hindu guru crossed my imaginal field, but I was privileged no special identity; I saw myself walking with my shoulders hunched without knowing the future, without having a set identity. So I tried violently to repress my thoughts, and the image of Christ manifested in a similar fashion as Artemis did earlier. It just wasn't the way. Then I thought of the Sun and the thought of the happy feeling, but I was too bold and ambitious--my attention was centered in my head. I resolved myself to not knowing the path, but I would be content with the resolution that if I could ever find a way for me to stop my thoughts, then everything would be "okay." Some other thoughts intervened that I do not remember. However, after these, I do remember perceiving a line of white light (on a lower plane than intellect) that descended vertically through my body and kept me in contact with the Minds. That being a human being meant that I was living on many ontological levels at once. I also remember thinking to myself whether these minds were subjective and limited to me--were "mine"--or whether they were objective. My conclusion was that they repeated themselves individually in every human being, but the absolutely same Minds were present, and thus were universal. The hand that appeared as if made from sunlight stroked through the top of my head, with the tacit admonishion that everything was going to be "okay." It wasn't a mind, and it wasn't me, but it seemed to care for me in a way, that still, in some way, didn't recognize me--in the light of It, my deepest sorrows seemed mere childish strategies for winning over the attention of . . . uh . . . the Gods (?).

"I am the Goddess of my own Life and World."

Again, I do not want to come off as contentious--and I only insist here because you come across as appreciating the dialectal method of philosophical examination, and hence the utility of argumentative opposition--but what does it even mean for a human being to be a god or a goddess?

[grim789]

Kinda like meditation just lay or sit in the lotus position which ever is best for you to relax an be comfortable but will not fall asleep. Then clear your mind of all thoughts this is harder than it seems what i do is to concentrate on something like a dot over my head while my eyes are closed and by keeping my attention on this dot my mind clears sure there will be thoughts go through your head but just recognize there there and focuse your attention back on the dot then invision (My method) your body being pulled on by by a sttring from the floor really hard pulling your astral body out of the phyical one imagery is key here you must be able to see it actually happening or else it will not happen. Hope this helped you out some good luck to you.

Peace!

[grim789]

I dont know what you mean by your post Bullfrogrules but i did have a character named grimious on diablo and if your just being a smart ass it was just my method and i figured i would share if you dot like it i dont really care.:cool:

[Norin]

Well this is day 3 of my "Learn to Astral Project" program.

Today I've spent a full hour trying different techniques, to get the hell out of my body, and none of em worked.

Most I've ever seen (well heard) to happen was on day 1, when I heard a strange sound, like the bubbles of when you pour a glass of coke, the sound coming from that foam. Or when the waves hitting the beach are retreating, that similar sound.

So far I've tried
- the rope technique (visualise or feel climbing up a rope, attached to the ceiling)
- the physical anchor technique, with 3-4 different objects (visualise and feel an object in the room, either on the ceiling or in front of the bed, beyond my legs, and mentally grab that object, pulling on it, to break free of the flesh body)
- staring into the darkness behind the eyelids, while mentally repeating my name, so I don't fall asleep (what worked on day 1 pretty well and started creating the auditory hallucinations, which are then supposed to be followed by separation, according to some articles)

And so far for day 3. Looking forward to this evening, for other attempts, and then day 4, until I get the hang of this.

I anyone knows some other techniques to try, do share :)

[Spencer455446]

I never heard of staring into darkness behind the eyelids i can't wait to try that. But to as far as the arguement has gone it is really a matter of what works for you. If you want to take the medication to stop depression then do so sometimes it will work sometimes it will not. It is all a matter of opinon no reason to argue. Accept what the other thinks and let him think so wheather you think it to be right or wrong or left or up and down at the same time. It is all a matter of opinon and belif so let it rest at so.