Vision Quest/ Magick

[Natasha77]

When I first began magick in early high school I was restricted on physical freedom. I was that typical covert witch in a religious area. I began attempting astral projection and never completely left the body. Yet I did, and have always been able to, go into my "Mind's Eye". In a way it was remote viewing. I explored the upper and lower planes this way. It's almost as if only a part of me left the body. I read so much about astral projection yet people never talk about this 'inbetween' kind. I am curious to others perspective of it.

On another note, I learned to practice magick while in this 'deep visualization'. I can practice rituals in the physical with no problem, but I find in the 'minds eye/astral' I have access to any concept. Any tool, any herbs, any environment. Years ago I left this way of practicing magick to begin to learn the physical side. Now recently I have begun to go into this 'visualization' again to practice magick. Is it any more or less valid than physically doing it? What is your opinion?

[Tanemis]

As I understand it, anything done on the Astral can effect things on the Physical. This seems to me that you have the perfect practice area without any damaging effect to anything on the physical and without any disruptions. I'm still working on being able to do that consistently.

[Phnouthis]

I believe that the "in-between kind" that you are talking about is usually referred to as mental traveling. While I do tend to recognize some sort of continuity between astral projection and mental traveling, I must make a definite distinction between the two. Mental traveling is much more similar to the types of abstraction and dissociation involved in vivid daydreams or, on the other hand, absorbing intellectual contemplation. In fact, I would say that those who have a natural proclivity for such activities will find mental traveling a breeze. The progression into atral projection, however, implicates the full, classified symptology of the hypagogic state, and thus requires a complete relaxation of the body, not merely the dissociation thereof--as is the case in mental traveling. Furthermore, unlike the background duality implicit in mental traveling, one is entirely centered in one's astrosome in relation to external phenomena while astrally projected, as the astrosome provides the same objective fundament--or feeling of a real "other" in relation to one's conscious mental stream--as the physical body, and yet one does perceive in one's astrosome objective cognitive content somehow meaningfully linked to the structural meaning of one's environment. I apologize for the bad writing, but tonight is a Sam Adams night:)



"On another note, I learned to practice magick while in this 'deep visualization'. I can practice rituals in the physical with no problem, but I find in the 'minds eye/astral' I have access to any concept. Any tool, any herbs, any environment. Years ago I left this way of practicing magick to begin to learn the physical side. Now recently I have begun to go into this 'visualization' again to practice magick. Is it any more or less valid than physically doing it? What is your opinion?"

I have actually been thinking about this problem for years now, though perhaps phrased for myself another way. Perchance this is one of those problems that is intimately linked to one's own personal constitution, or it might be more connected to the nature and purpose of the working. In order to propound my opinion more definitely, I need to ask: What kind of workings do you do in this "mind's eye" style? There is pretty hard evidence to suggest that the ancient magoi were aware of the magical uses of active imagination, and yet they nonetheless felt some sort of need to utilize even more exhaustive physical media than we do today. Just going from my experience with both, I would say that the very nature of physical ritual necessitates a greater deal of preparation, focus, and devotion, and is thusly already more energetically charged, as it were. Moreover, it is apparent to me that whenever I do a ritual physically, the effects resonate more deeply into my being, and grab ahold of my entire soul, rather than merely trickling down as in rites implementing solely active imagination.

In the ancient works, I am inclined to say that I glean an implicit assumption that, almost as if by the same thinking that produces associative connections such as magical correspondences, the very fact that a magical working is operating on every level, increases its influence directly on every level.

I am not sure if I have hit the nail on the head with all of this; but I will say that I definitely do notice a difference--I can, however, only speculate about the "reasons." Maybe the best way of meeting this question would be to first expound a theoretical position on just how physical magic ritual works.

[Natasha77]

Thanks for the replies. I do understand what you are saying. By performing it in the physical, in the mental, and in the spirit. Performing it on all three levels is the strongest. But I do suppose it depends on the ritual.

I've had quite a few recent positive results from curses done purely in the mental, although I did do some vocalization. One from a few months ago and renewing it recently. The results have been accurate. Another has been altering physical appearance, over time of course, and now a few weeks later I see strong results. Another was making a smaller event occur. Nothing powerful, almost a joke really, and it happened a few hours later.

The only one I have yet to get results was a love spell, but I only performed it a few nights ago. I'll wait a few moons before I draw a conclusion.

I suppose lower magick, which is what I am mainly referring to, may be okay to perform in the "mental" alone. Also, strangely enough, when I do it in the 'mental' I am more confident about it. Invocations, evocations, and the like I prefer to do physically on any account. Especially bigger rituals such as sabbats, etc.

[Phnouthis]

By Hekate, you are quite the sorceress!

Ok, my most consciously significant, introspectively accessible, motivation for participating in these forums is to refine my own theoretical groundings, given the opportunity for collating my own experiences with the, oftentimes very different, results of other magicians (As the Magick within me could best be described as theurgy--believe me, the choice was not altogether my own--I find little (and increasingly less) occasion for direct operations on the physical world; for the "source" of the very desire for worldly control that would motivate such a working is exactly the devil that I have it as my task to subdue). With that said, I must state explicitly that I am certainly no moral universalist, and hence find the more "worldly" magical workings and relevant motivations of others extremely interesting, and essential for expanding my overall understanding of the magical aspects of the cosmos. I am, by temperament, strongly inclined towards empiricism, and hence, when formulating my theoretical interpretations, I favor an almost painstaking description of the phenomena in question. So with this rather verbose introduction I ask you, if you should not consider my request to be overstepping the limits of your personal privacy, Please describe for me these mental workings; if you have any hunches about the mode by which these workings were effective (telepathy, magical sympathy, spirit intercession, etc.) all the better.

"The only one I have yet to get results was a love spell, but I only performed it a few nights ago. I'll wait a few moons before I draw a conclusion."

This I find particularly interesting, especially in terms of your motivation and your understanding of "love" within the context of the spell. Again, if it is not too much to ask, I would be most obliged if you could give an even general outline of the spell you employed.

"I suppose lower magick, which is what I am mainly referring to, may be okay to perform in the "mental" alone. Also, strangely enough, when I do it in the 'mental' I am more confident about it."

Yeah, it does appear strange to me, as I have felt, to the contrary, more confident satisfaction with using physical media for low magic, as the mental means must be present anyway (I should note that this is especially the case when I am doing a spell intended to act on another person; for here I have found that it just "fits"--as have magicians of all times and climes--to employ magica materia, or some substance from the persons body such as hair, or, at the very least, a photograph or else an object with which that person was in contact). On theoretical grounds however, I tend to think that purely mental magic, when effective, works primarily, if not exclusively, through either telepathic means or, more conservatively, self-suggestion. If indeed it were simply a matter of self-suggestion, it would be difficult for the actual spellcaster to interpret the results objectively, as he or she would be inexorably under the influence of the confirmation bias. I apologize if it comes across that I am pushing some sort of debunking reductionism, but I have known quite enough people who, under the pretense of "The Law of Attraction," have tossed the ashes of their common sense into the wind, and have subsequently dug deep pits for themselves.

[Natasha77]

Pretty much, to keep it simple, I lay down, typically before I go to sleep, and relax into a trance state, as if I would to project. Once I have 'emptied my mind' I began to visualize an 'astral temple' if you will. Typically I visualize the woods, a bonfire, I may be nude or downright feral if it calls for it. Then, just as in the physical, I call upon what currents I may use, I state my intent, then I flow with it. I may begin dancing or howling or whatever.

If it's a curse I'll visualize something sympathetic, a doll or necklace, a black candle, etc. For the love I threw rose petals into the air and into the fire. Also, obviously, I go into to what I want to happen. To be simple, anything I would do in a physical ritual, I do in the mental. Invocations/evocations do work in this state but I prefer the physical, probably out of habit.

The way I see it. Magick is based on Will/Desire/Belief as Spare put it. If our Subconscious desires it, our Conscious is disciplined, we have full confidence/belief, we 'fire it off', and then go about our business. Over time it will manifest by what means it can and specifically what you said, be it good or bad. As long as these bare bones essentials are met, a person can do it in whatever method works. This is a chaos magician, or "old school witch" way of looking at it. Ceremony is just a formal structure, not a necessity.

I agree with the Theurgy, or "Higher Magick". I focused on this quite awhile before I began practicing lower magick. Personally there must be balance. Evolving our Consciousness is great, but things like love, sex, career, etc. assist in this. As long as the lower magick is aligned with True Will. By True Will I mean the "right course" for you. For example, we kiss many frogs in relationships before we find our "true love". I say, we set sail on many crappy winds in life till we find that "right current" to take us to fulfillment. So lower magick for winning the lotto isn't exactly assisting fulfillment.

Also, I've learned with lower magick, it's okay to have fun with it, lol.

I'm not "great sorceress". I am a High Priestess of Hekate, but I'm a 22 year old girl just like any other. lol.

[Phnouthis]

Okay, I misunderstood what you meant by operating magic mentally; I took you to mean something more like focused intent, not visualized ritual. I really cannot say much from experience about the efficacy of visualized ritual.

Speaking from my own case, I would have to say that theurgy has so considerably changed me that the concepts derived from external, prima facie descriptions of phenomena such as "love, sex, career," etc., no longer carry the same connotations or expectations that they formerly did--and commonly do. Perhaps I'm just getting old, I will be leaving my 20s in February (by the way, you shouldn't have told me your age, from now on, no matter how hard I might try to fight it, this fact will find its way into my evaluation of myself in relation to your posts:)), but the meanings behind, let's say, "career"--I mean, the range of meanings that place value, or orient purpose and, consequentially, behavior, not the purely "objective" content of the word ("sex" is easier here: I don't mean the basic descriptive--anatomical, physiological--facts of, in this case, sex, but the range of meanings of the word "sex" that are directly related to one's personhood)--are no longer compatible with my internal, motivational meaning set; they seem to be constructed from and for a collective personality with which I cannot identify. Hence I cannot pursue a career, but rather I can assist in actualizing deeply set existential drives that just might incidentally materialize in this or that career (For instance, when I was younger, I ambitiously strove to establish myself in an academic career, and, additionally, I put in the extra effort to acquaint myself with areas of inquiry that would give me, what I perceived was, a creative advantage over my would-be colleagues. Nevertheless, as time progressed, I abruptly grew bored with purely intellectual challenges, and now, after a few years of soul-searching, meaninglessness, and, generally speaking, severe depression, I'm in the application process for becoming an Army officer. But when I project myself into this future path in order to represent for myself my motivations, I am keenly attentive to the internal, psychic benefits wrought by the external conditions, but only dimly aware of the external conditions themselves. This is very different from my youthful self who represented his desired future scenarios in--albeit, glorified--images.). It is, then, very difficult for me to do "low magic" now, as I cannot help but to believe that external circumstances (such as falling in love, or finding a career), coalesce around the expression of such higher-order, internal meanings, and thus, that the magical modification of external circumstances cannot be an end in itself for me--my focus cannot easily be actionably displaced from the sphere of internal development; for some reason I have this sense that the external world, at some level, cooperates with me on this, and only on this, "transcendental" plane of motivation.

I find this notion of a True Will to be very curious, as I have never read a consistent statement of the facts of which the definition of this concept is supposed to serve as an interpretation. I do think, however, that there is something to the idea, I am just not entirely sure what that might be; and further, I am hesistant to extend the full rage of theoretical baggage implied in and adduced on behalf of this concept of a "True Will"--or perhaps I just have a difficult time separating the concept from Thelema; I think that my assessment of the same set of facts conceptualized by the term "True Will" would give birth to a different term.



Love spells are of great interest to me, as I have found romantic relationships to be the most challenging type of magical working. I'm not, however, exactly sure of my stance on love at this point--I mean, it's essentially the same as it always was (for Love itself surely does not belong to me), but, except for some remaining excrescences of cynicism, it now feels purer, liberated from the dark clusters of associations that once obscured the clarity of my perception of this great power. Did you endeavor to enchant a particular person, or did you cast for love in general? Anyway, good luck to you:)

Hekate holds my affection as well. Have you ever read the Chaldean Oracles?

[Sara D]

The word Vision Quest and Fire Walks make me cringe big time. I have a hard time with any labels, and as long as I have practiced magick, let us call it what it is going within, and vision quest reminds me of a Disney movie. Please excuse my cynicism but all this beating around the bush, and big words do not an occultist make.

Yes please cut out the gibberish and speak English. I understand where you are coming from Sir.

[Belphebe]

You know how to spot a phony a mile away, don't you Belasko?

[Natasha77]

Actually if you would have read the full thread you would know what it's exactly about instead of making pretentious calls. Quite frankly I just threw the term out there loosely because I wasn't exactly sure what to call it. That's about how much I care about "terms that make an occultist".

[Natasha77]

Pnouthis, I do understand what you mean about lower magick becoming less important to you. I suppose what you are saying is the Universe flows with you naturally without any sort of 'specific' lower magick of your own to change things? This does make good sense.

When I was younger I had the glorified ideas. Now they are more realistic but I do aim high, no matter what the opposition. I truly wish to fulfill myself, or self-actualization, in the fullest sense of the term. By sex, I mean sex between two people. To me, true love with another person is MUCH more important than sex. Although to be single and happy is also beautiful. There are so many who cannot live life alone and still be happy/fulfilled. I still have many seeds in life to grow. Books I want to write, places I want to travel, people I want to meet, things I want to do, etc. First and foremost, at the present, education.

Good luck to you too in your military aspirations.

[Phnouthis]

The word Vision Quest and Fire Walks make me cringe big time. I have a hard time with any labels, and as long as I have practiced magick, let us call it what it is going within, and vision quest reminds me of a Disney movie. Please excuse my cynicism but all this beating around the bush, and big words do not an occultist make.

I don't understand what it is about so many people in these forums: Why the need for these unnecessary personal jabs? So what if a term gives you a negative emotional reaction? Surely a more classy way of expressing your chagrin would be simply to explicate the inappropriateness of a term in summing up an interpretation of the relevant set of data. Surely I could object to the validity of the strong literalism that you propose for your phrase "going within," as it does employ a spatial metaphor in application to a--tenably--non- or merely quasi-spatial realm of experience (equally, one could say, "going without" with just as much validity). Moreover, it seems quite odd to me that you would enter into this discussion without addressing any of the multitude of points that have been made, or otherwise contributing something substantive to the topic; choosing, instead, to grab immediate attention for yourself by chastising the terminology employed by those contributors who have, obviously, been managing quite all right without your opinions.

[Phnouthis]

Yes please cut out the gibberish and speak English. I understand where you are coming from Sir.

If this is directed towards me, then all I can do is apologize for what may appear to be my needlessly difficult prose style, and humbly ask for your patience. Please understand, however, that I write how I think; I can agree that "big words do not an occultist make," but nonetheless respond that intricate and highly descriptive argumentation, along with a matching prose style, does, at least in part, "a philosopher make." I have tried, in the past, to simpify my prose for the sake of making it more easily digestible. This project, however, could not be perpetuated to any length without causing a great deal of repressive interference to the fluency of my natural train of thought.

If you do glean something worthwhile in my posts but, understandably, cannot confidently settle on its interpretation, please feel free to ask me for a more developed explanation on any or all points--I promise that you will find me most obliging. If, on the other hand, you deem my posts to be, largely, a rubbage heap of pretentious Latinate words, a mere disguise for the fact that I do not have anything of value to say, you could just do what most would regard as the truly higher thing--realizing that your views could hardly be said to extend so far as to be the ultimate perspective--and simply pass by in silence . . .;)

[Phnouthis]

Natasha:

Hmmm. I hope you didn't take my last post as some sort of cyber courtship, lol. The truth is, I get very little opportunity to explore my ideas on this, my most passionate subject of interest, which accumulate so tightly in my chest. My closest friends are skeptical, "rogue" intellectuals or else aspiring artists and writers; despite the commonality of interests I usually find the majority of my fellow occultists to be mere fantasy-prone dilettantes, hoping to discover in magic the type of worldly power that could be more efficiently sought in just coming to grips with reality and training in a lucrative profession. Your conversation, however, has been a breath of fresh air.

Don't get me wrong: I was simply using "sex" as an example for distinguishing between (see, even here, I was about to allude to Frege's distinction between "Sinne" and "Bedeutung"--see, all ye, my critics and judges!) . . . hmmm . . . the real-world, empirical content of a concept, and its relationships to anthropocentric values, purposes, associations, etc--as I said, I am not and do not care to be a moral univeralist; nor do I have any problem with sex that is understood, even from the inception of the seduction, not to result in any continued emotional attachment. My point was how theurgy has spiritualized my motivations, so that, now using sex as my example, I couldn't enchant for sex alone, with the intention of, say, feeling the bare sensory pleasure thereof; but it could be that some sort of meaning is actualized by me, say, going out to a bar one night, getting inebriated, and waking up the next morning in the arms of a 7 foot transsexual (no, it has never happened, and I pray, with a gasping laugh, that my sense of humor is spared such an opportunity!). I should, nonetheless, add here, that there self-deception for the sake of pushing my egoic agenda is futile: I cannot tell myself, say, "it's really not for sex alone." "Sex" does not have a salient meaning there, being merely a means for intantiation.

I wouldn't exactly say that the Universe flows with me naturally--though I would definitely be a more cheerful fellow if it did. What I mean is, that I do enchant, but the object for which I enchant, cannot, in and of itself, be a worldly event cut off from a certain sphere of internal meaning (I cannot choose the particulars of how that meaning is instantiated, but I must work to instantiate that meaning)--a sphere that is objective--not mine--very much like what I understand of the concept of True Will, except it is more cognitive than the word "will" would normally allow (and, if pushed, I could explain it in a way much clearer than Crowley's concept; though I cannot help it, that old degenerate will always be counted in my canon of saints.) Moreover, there seems to be a sort of "conspiracy" between external events and the inner content of this "sphere"--but the sphere is surely not "me" or "mine"; in fact, it used to feel like a burden better off repressed.

What are you studying at school? (Again, if you don't mind this question intrusive).

[Natasha77]

You do have quite an interesting way with words. I can relate about witches/magicians. I prefer the company of atheists or intellects. I find many magick types to drift off into fantasy rather than acknowledging realism, psychology, and science. I used to be this way until I took a very long tour through Atheism and Reason.

I keep my eyes open for people like you bears real intelligence. It may be faux pas, but do you have a Facebook?

I believe I understand what you are saying about lower magick and sex. You are saying there must be a higher meaning to the goal? Which is how I feel about "True Will". If the goal does not really aid me or True Will, then why bother?

Right now I am about to begin talking to admissions offices to BEGIN school. The past few years has been an adventure to 'find myself'. I am looking at majoring in Psychology and/or English. Eventually for a Masters or more. I love learning, reading, studying, etc. I've been studying/reading non-stop even without college. Recently I've been studying Evolutionary Biology and books by Carl Sagan. I think next I am going to take a tour back through Hermetics with a Stephen Flowers book.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your background/tradition of magickal practice? or if you want to take this into a private chat.

[ZeldaFitz]

Please do me a favor Belasko, be constructive in criticism, and if you two are going to have a discussion on personal matters then please do it through emails and/or visitor messages. Let's keep the thread on topic please!

[Knight]

I'm beginning to think Belasko really is Sean Connery, lol, and I commend him for actually reading everything. I couldn't do it. I do like straightforward conversations on forums. When I have read five sentences and feel like I was just reading random words, I tend to give up. I'm smart, though. Really. :)

I have nothing to add to the actual subject of this thread, so I apologize, but I did find the thread entertaining somewhat.

[Natasha77]

I think it is when two people are having a genuine, honest, and peaceful conversation about magick yet are randomly criticized with very little constructive or positive intention that turns an otherwise positive forum experience into a negative experience. Things like this are what may give a forum a negative name.

As for flaunting anything. It was just an honest conversation in all seriousness. I'm confused as to the random irrational aggressiveness out of nowhere. Its discouraging to see another make a strong and solid judgment about me based on very little. I've done nothing to offend anyone in this forum.

[ZeldaFitz]

You'll have to get use to this forum, it can be brutal, and some of the more advanced members can be downright aggressive.

[Natasha77]

I suppose so. It's been a long time since I have participated in a public forum. I'm not exactly novice myself, I just prefer to communicate in a positive manner instead of unnecessary aggressiveness. That is most certainly something my path has taught me.

[ZeldaFitz]

I don't know what else to tell you, but we have members who have thirty or more years under their belt, and they will tend to challenge if they feel a bit of an attitude or posts that go no where, this is how they see it. You are lucky this forum I am told showed no mercy to new members, so it has calmed down a lot.

[Phnouthis]

Yes I think a few of us are seeing long drawn out posts between two people who's egos are so big, they are leaving out others in the conversation. It is becoming redundant, long drawn out posts that are saying absolutely nothing except "Look at me, I am an intellectual, I know absolutely nothing about the occult, but I talk a good game." It has come to a love fest between these two, so if you are so inclined to continue your gibberish as one member pointed out then I am sure you both can make the perfect match off the board. I have read the posts Dear and all you need are a few hard back chairs some food, and new age music and you will be back in the 90's. By the way the Sara D is new here, and she has already picked up on you two but then again it is not hard to do.

But again, all that we get from you, Belasko, is one giant minus sign. I was hoping that you would include in your reply a substantive development, either for or against, of the numerous claims which have been made during the course of this thread--after all, you appear to imply that you are an expert occultist. I chose not to take my conversation with Natasha into private messaging, in the hopes that someone would, in fact, opt to join in on the discussion.

[Natasha77]

wow, very mature, your behavior confirms your character too well.

[ZeldaFitz]

As I am aware we have a bit of a problem. Belasko happens to be very well respected in the Occult World especially the OTO, so I don't think anything anyone can say will make a dent. I will say is let us get back on topic the actual topic and stop the nit picking, or i will close the thread till it stops.

[Knight]

I would have sworn that Belasko was quoting Sean Connery, but I can't find the quote.

Anyway.....I can just see Sean Connery saying that as Dr. Henry Jones.

I know I've heard Sean Connery say, "Oh, Jesus, not one of you!" and "I don't give a ****!," in his movies, but perhaps not in the same one, lol. A medley of Sean Connery, perhaps. Perhaps I'm way off, but it seems something amusing to do.

Anyway, I would love to add something to this thread, but Astral Projection is really not my expertise, as far as I know. Sometimes I do things and it takes awhile for me to figure out what people are calling it.

[ZeldaFitz]

Yes and he is probably Sean Connery. :D

[Knight]

Yes and he is probably Sean Connery. :D

lol, anything is possible.

Honestly, though, I just can't get into the whole internet feud thing. I have to deal with enough violence outside of the forums. So this and the stuff with the Permanent site doesn't seem that significant.

Someone I know shot someone in the head last week. Then, they were disarmed and almost beaten to death, for comparison. That wasn't the only thing, either. Someone else was killed, and someone who knew them had issues with it, so I had to deal with that.

The world is so fucked up. Sometimes I laugh, because if I didn't I would cry.

[Phnouthis]

Yeah, I do have Facebook, but I don't use it very much; in fact, I have never even made the acquaintance of the majority of people on my friends list. I will, nonetheless, privately message you with my information.


"I believe I understand what you are saying about lower magick and sex. You are saying there must be a higher meaning to the goal? Which is how I feel about "True Will". If the goal does not really aid me or True Will, then why bother?"

Yes, and the same applies for other material plane goals such as "career," which was the example that I originally selected for analysis, a fact that seems to have slipped past Belasko and his "love fest" obsession.

"Recently I've been studying Evolutionary Biology and books by Carl Sagan."

Interesting, as evolutionary biology and, perhaps especially, its ramifications for consciousness studies and the social sciences is currently receiving a good degree of rightly placed attention. However, other than the works of Richard Dawkins, and his acolyte, Dennett, I am not overly familiar with the literature of this area of inquiry.

"I think next I am going to take a tour back through Hermetics with a Stephen Flowers book."

While I do admire Flowers' work in reviving the Germanic esoteric tradition, I had the feeling that he was way out of his league during my reading of his Hermetic Magic. He makes a brief mention of Neoplatonism, but omits to mention any of those philosophers whose works most directly relate to magic (neither Iamblichus nor the massively influential Proclus; not even the apostate Emperor Julian and as his pagan theurgic evangelism!)--contenting himself with Plotinus, who is generally held to have been at least somewhat antipathetical to ritualism. We might excuse him here, as the Hermetic Corpus and much of the Greek Magical Papyri predate the Neoplatonists; but his bibliography is vacant of any entry of either primary or secondary source material on the Middle Plantonists, or "underworld" Platonic/Neo-Pythagorean movements such as that of the Juliani (the younger Julianus having coined the term "theourgeia), which relate directly to the Hermetic Corpus (instead, in an equally botched fashion, he presents as supplementary material, a caricatured Gnosticism).

My own personal recommendation is that you purchase Hans Dieter Betz's The Greek Magical Papyri in translation, if you do not alread possess it. Indeed, therein you will find a unique text, traditionally--though inaccurately--titled "The Mithras Liturgy," the methods of which relate directly to the topic of this thread: the contiguity between astral projection and active imagination. Afterwards, in turn, I would suggest that you turn your attention to the scholarly works on late antique esotericism--it has become a hot topic among classicists and Egyptologists as of late--; Christopher Faraone, David Frankfurt (some of his essays are superbly insightful), Georg Luck, Garth Fowden, and my former professor, Derek Collins, are some scholars whose works might be of interest to you.

[ZeldaFitz]

I know one things people tend to think they get desensitized to all the violence and the cruelty in the world, but you really don't. I find myself crying at times, and I have been accused of not having a heart. I don't have time for feuds, I just tell the truth, don't care if anyone cares or not, and go on my merry little way.

[Knight]

I know one things people tend to think they get desensitized to all the violence and the cruelty in the world, but you really don't. I find myself crying at times, and I have been accused of not having a heart. I don't have time for feuds, I just tell the truth, don't care if anyone cares or not, and go on my merry little way.

Yeah, this past week was tough on me. There is so much I'm not able to disclose because of confidentiality, etc., but someone expressed something that was from their heart and they are in so much pain, feeling like no one cares. I had to question why they thought no one cared, and when I looked around, I'm not sure too many of my co-workers did care. I mean, the reality of their life is so damn depressing, it is truly horrific. And, to look at this person, you wouldn't know it, because they hide it, but deep inside, its real bad.

Lately, when I am having a bad day, I think of them and things don't seem so bad anymore.

I haven't cried for them, but thats only because I hold it back. I could cry very easily for them, though.

Empathy is a pain in the butt, sometimes.

I wonder if Astral Projection could help with any of it.

You know over the years I have come to the conclusion that sometimes the people with the most empathy for others' pain seem the most heartless, because after years of seeing others suffer, die, etc., I have distanced myself from those feelings to protect myself, and sometimes that makes me seem uncaring.

That is probably the other thing I'm working on. Controlling emotion during crises. It is tough, especially when dealing with the type of crises I have to deal with.

[Phnouthis]

Oh Jesus not one of you! Young man is that suppose to bother me, I am sure you can do better than that. Wait a minute I don't give a ****.

No, it wasn't supposed to bother you, but as it would seem that you have this vice for the old and ugly ad hominem, I could see how you would take what I said in such a way. Perhaps a more refined sensibility, a more lofty spirit, would clearly see that I was inviting you to participate in any relevant debate of your choosing, while, as best as I could, trying to establish some rapport with your rather lowly psychospiritual state, by conforming myself--ah, but then so little--to the aggressive tone of your posts.

You say that you "don't give a ****" about my previous post, but obviously something within my posts has stirred you off your rocker enough for you to embarrass yourself as you have done--even Zelda seems reluctant to defend you, despite the obvious respect for you that she had previously cultivated. I am not exactly overly acquainted with the "in-crowds" of the occult world--I really don't care to be--but I have made the acquaintance of Wasserman and Dr. Kaczynski; while I do not know the former very well, and could only say good things about the latter, I have yet to meet a single one of my esoteric peers that can match me either in the practical or theoretical dimensions of magic. I know, it's my inflated ego speaking: ok, but as a wide-ranging plethora of psychological functions are conceptualized by "inflated ego," many of which I would choose to nourish within myself, this supposed criticism only leaves me hungry for more detail from you--detail which you do not have the courage to provide, detail, however, if properly explicated and defended, could only be to my benefit. Haha, now you should see--alas, my faith in your abilities is justifiably minimal--where I am going with all this. Please add at least a little cognitive element to your attacks should you choose to reply; this protracted emotionalism on your part only reinforces my cynicism.

[dannerz]

When I first began magick in early high school I was restricted on physical freedom. I was that typical covert witch in a religious area. I began attempting astral projection and never completely left the body. Yet I did, and have always been able to, go into my "Mind's Eye". In a way it was remote viewing. I explored the upper and lower planes this way. It's almost as if only a part of me left the body. I read so much about astral projection yet people never talk about this 'inbetween' kind. I am curious to others perspective of it.

On another note, I learned to practice magick while in this 'deep visualization'. I can practice rituals in the physical with no problem, but I find in the 'minds eye/astral' I have access to any concept. Any tool, any herbs, any environment. Years ago I left this way of practicing magick to begin to learn the physical side. Now recently I have begun to go into this 'visualization' again to practice magick. Is it any more or less valid than physically doing it? What is your opinion?

I believe that the astral plane is a certain level of the mental plane.
It's possible to send out energy and mental fractions into projections.
You dont have to be out of your body before your soul can move energies around and view things.

I think it is good that you are practicing as you are, and you should keep up the good work.