should we respect christianity?

[slayer]

I've had a big debate on this for awhile with myself. part of me says yes, jesus died on the cross so we should have respect. But I think I've come to the conclusion of not respecting them. I was in school the other day and I told a teacher about trying to check out the satanic bible at the library. She meanly said i don't want to hear about that. I don't want to hear about your shitty ass religion then. Lavey even says , the parts that I've read, that it's time the devil shouted back. I went to church with my mom today and they kept taking blame after blame on the devil. no, it was your stupid head that put ideas in there, not satan. anyways, thats my thoughts on that subject. and yes I know of the satanic something says don't give opinions unless asked, but if you don't want my opinion then you don't have to read this or respond to it. oh and i forgot, jesus was dumb because he knew he was going to die and die for "our sins". and don't ask me why jesus did a complete satanist move by self sacrificing. if i offend anyone please tell me, I don't mean to come off so strong on jeebus.

[MissRachel]

k plain and simple answer to the question should we respect Christianity...... NO! there easy said and done...and a lil more elaborate....F*** no we shouldn't

[devakxes]

We should respect them. By being bigots, we end up becoming like them - mindless animals in human form.

However, respecting them does not mean going and allowing them to run us over or tell us what to do. It means co-existing with them. They shouldn't be trying to force their beliefs on us and we shouldn't be trying to force their beliefs on them. Everyone is on their own spiritual path and some may genuinely walk the path of mainstream christian religions.

I understand the hate though. It isn't easy being condemned and such.
I also hate the concept of how people claim that goodness comes from God and evil from Satan. Both exist within the human mind and both concepts can be manipulated. Conscience has nothing to do specifically with morality. One does not feel guilt for doing bad, they feel shame. They only feel guilt for hurting another.

Lavey also encourages people to think for themselves. So don't hold everything he says as truth engraved in stone. As he himself says, he is but a man. He doesn't claim to be divinely inspired by the devil, but by Himself.

Jesus wasn't originally a christian idea. Before christianity, after Jesus died... there was the Gnostics. After that a couple people ( some of the apostles and high officials) came together to build a church centered around the teachings of christ. The first war in the name of Jesus was on what he was. ''Is he the son of god or is he a lesser spirit?'' Before the Gnostics there was the worshippers of Dionysus, Demeter, Mithra, Osiris, all dying and resurrection deities. The spirit is the same just the personification is different. The true meaning of Jesus is lost because people have perverted his words to mean other things.

I do not like the god of the jews. I do not like '' The Father'' or Yahweh. But that is my own personal issues. One of them being that I am gay and I refuse to worship a god who condemns love. I also refuse to worship a god who desires prostration. I bow to no one. There are other issues but that is but a few, so I do really understand where you are coming from.

[Wolf]

I see no reason to not to. I am good friends with some people who are Christian, one of which who is a priest. I have also completely torn down the faith of others.
After I deconverted from Christianity one of the things that took me a couple years to learn was to not blame the faith for it is harmless; but rather blame the people who take such a literal and negative approach. Jesus I would label as a good man. Many of his followers I would label as evil.

[devakxes]

I as well have torn down the faith of others. But I generally don't do that unless someone goes and attacks my faith, then I attack theirs fully and without mercy or remorse. I am not saying my faith is flawless or that it is perfect...<i> it is simply my way</i>

I myself am a luciferian with thelemic influence. To me my faith is truth. To them their faith is truth. Religion becomes poison when it no longer brings spirituality to the person who practices the religion - then it is dogma and empty ritual.

[BLZBUBB]

Why should we, as Satanists, respect a religion that has utterly rejected us? Every aspect of their faith counteracts our philosophy. They have killed our people in the past and have made it quite clear that if given the chance, they would do so again.
As far as Jesus the man, and the Bible is concerned, there are many aspects which do coincide with our beliefs, such as I for an eye. But the current symbol of Christ, which had nothing to do with the original (remember Jesus kick over the money changer table and declared "this is the house of god not market!".), has made and absolute mockery of everything the man taught. I think that people worship the so-called Anti-Christ in this wretched symbol.

[Dajai]

Respect your enemies or you will be defeated.

[Kirtastrophe]

Laveyan Satanism pretty much says to have respect for people who deserve it. If you think they're ignorant and stupid, they probably don't deserve it. As for the religion... maybe not respect; just don't judge solely on religious beliefs because that's how stupid wars are started. Not that all war is stupid, just the one's that are started for stupid reasons, like religious beliefs.

[Solitary_star]

I would not say that Christianity is bad; it is man who corrupts religion with his own subjective interpretation.
The main reason why Christians would hate/dislike Satanists is FEAR. They know nothing about Satanism apart from the stereotypical nonsense; they follow the path that they have been 'programmed' to take.
When you fear someone often the reaction is to attack them; you don't really know what to think about them so want them as far away from you as possible.
The devil is evil/bad because they don't really know anything about him; the only thing they do know is what they have been preached and let's be honest here; most people who follow monotheistic (spelling!) religions aren't really that intelligent in the common sense and sensible department. They are just mindless sheep that can only follow the shepherd. Anything outside is scary.

I think that Jesus Christ did what he did but it has been people who corrupted his teachings for their own gain. I have always doubted that he died to save people for their sins-sounds pretty convinient to me. I mean what is the point of back-biting, treating people badly, cheating them, using physical violence against someone and then going to church on Sundays to repent for your sins? What exactly do you learn from all this?

I'm not sure on the other hand of respecting all Christians-certainly not those that put down other faiths, belief systems or lifestyles.
It is friggin scary how people can become so brain-washed that they would kill/attack someone for being different-it goes to show how weak and poor people are in their minds.

I think I've gone off topic here so will stop:rolleyes:

It would be interesting to read more opinions on this thread.

Regards.
S.

[MissRachel]

uhhh sorry no i wont respect them...FORGET IT!

[satanictemple]

I've had a big debate on this for awhile with myself. part of me says yes, jesus died on the cross so we should have respect. But I think I've come to the conclusion of not respecting them. I was in school the other day and I told a teacher about trying to check out the satanic bible at the library. She meanly said i don't want to hear about that. I don't want to hear about your shitty ass religion then. Lavey even says , the parts that I've read, that it's time the devil shouted back. I went to church with my mom today and they kept taking blame after blame on the devil. no, it was your stupid head that put ideas in there, not satan. anyways, thats my thoughts on that subject. and yes I know of the satanic something says don't give opinions unless asked, but if you don't want my opinion then you don't have to read this or respond to it. oh and i forgot, jesus was dumb because he knew he was going to die and die for "our sins". and don't ask me why jesus did a complete satanist move by self sacrificing. if i offend anyone please tell me, I don't mean to come off so strong on jeebus.

This is quite a dilemma for a lot of serious Satanists. Should we respect a belief system centered on a god that we do despise? My answer is two-fold. First, I do not advocate respect for the belief system that is Christianity. I hate it, and I encourage all true Satanists to hate it with all their being. Second, I do advocate respect for individuals. I have Christian friends, and though I vehemently disagree with their belief system, I cherish their friendship. These are pretty open-minded Christians though.

[satanictemple]

satanictemple golly are you from the temple website

Yes, I am.

[Eumendies]

They are nothing but animals... Animals can not be respected, they can well treated, liked and even loved. But not respected. One thing is sure - They will never respect non of us, why should I respect them?!

[Eumendies]

I think iv'e missed the point, what are you trying to say?

[devakxes]

That's typically the stance I take on them Eumenides.

I try to help them but I see a lot of people as not genuine. Since most people aren't genuine they aren't willing to take the necessary steps to help themselves evolve. Thus I don't try unless they seek me out or I see someone with great potential.

This is from Diane Vera... a well-known satanist.

''Therefore, I do think that counter-evangelism is justified, as a means of helping those who are not happy with hardcore Christianity (or hardcore Islam, or hardcore Judaism) to liberate themselves, and as a means of reducing the potential pool of religious right wing recruits. (Also, on a more personal level, counter-evangelism can be helpful as a means of building rhetorical skill and/or learning to think more logically. And, for recent ex-Christians, ex-Muslims, or ex-ultra-Orthodox Jews, digging into the arguments on both sides can be helpful as a means of reassuring oneself that one has done the right thing by leaving Christianity/Islam/Judaism/whatever.)''

[Ziggy_wolf]

I respect peoples right to beleive what they want.
I do not however respect any form of organized religion.
Organized religion is a perverted, twisted form of what the beleif system once was and is now used primarely to allow the few to gain power over the many.
Therefore I respect those who worship "personaly" and form their own beleifs.

I see myself as an agnostic, I reckognize that there is some force in the univerce, but I do not beleive that this is a concious entety.
If such a being did exist I still would not see any reason to worship it, I would then spit in its eye. What creature could justly weild such vast power?
Does the mare posession of power give right to rule and tyranize over others?
What being, says he loves humanity and is all loving and all forgiving, yet murders his own children? What god allows his own son to suffer when he himself could have easily written the wrong? What other animal denies his own instincts? What other creature hates itself for allowing itself the simple pleasures of life? Man is the most corruped creature there ever was.
Rather than woship a tyrant good, I reckognize that we are all gods, bound together by the devine power of infinate creation, wich is our birthright.
I preach no gospel, only: Love, Acceptance and Freedom.
Or as Crowley said, Do what ye will shall be the whole of the law, and let it be governed by love, or something along those lines.

So, for my sake, people can beleive what ever they want, and I will offcourse respect that, as long as they don`t try to shove it down peoples throats.

[Fateless]

My opinion in regards to Christianity..

It is righteous to respect an enemy. But Christianity is an oppressor, a worker of the ropes, a deceptive and omni-present persecutor of the unknown.

It's a question of respecting the chaser as the chased. Myself, I despise Christians for what they've done to humanity, and the bias and ignorance we face everyday.

Should we respect Christians?

[Nevermore]

As I have stated to people I have discussed the religion with before, as a Satanist I am capable of both love and hate. I hate the religion for what it has done to people and our history. For the fear and brainwashing it has put on simple minds and young children. The disrespect it fosters for people who do not conform to their presuppositions about the Universe and personal lives. Christian elders where behind the Salem Witch Trials and the KKK as well as The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades. Most wars were started and revived in the name of God.

However, sometimes I pity people and sometimes I see it as: "If this is what they want, then they get the logical and emotional garbage they deserve." However, I pity young children and emotionally evolving teens that are racked with a guilt/fear manipulation their doped into thinking they need to go to ministry colleges and and theology universities (which are contradiction in terms, IMHO) because god is calling them! The discrimination it fostered against blacks and now GLBT's.

Respect is earned and is also relative to a specific point. Christians manipulate the minds of believers to make The Others appear as vicious people who are only out to destroy your beautiful faith in God, and they are wreak-less, self destructive, devils living pointless lives. Christianity is more black and white than a 1950's gangster film.

Nevermore

[Kain]

Why not respecting Christians? You LaVeyans are actually atheists so you are not stronger than we Christians are... So why not respecting us since we respect you? (We dont respect your beliefs because you have no beliefs since you are actually atheists but we respect you - At least I do...)

The Christian church has done many bad things but you dont have to judge all Christians just by the mistakes of some... I mean these people have chosen to be God's priests, did God choose them to be His priests? Did we Christians choose them to be God's priests? No! So why not respect us? We actually want the same thing: Peace in the world. And don't tell me LaVeyans (atheists) don't want peace but war because this will be a lie.

Besides LaVey himself was a Theistic Satanist not an atheist, it's just that Church of Satan changed their main objective after his death just to separate themselves from the satanic murders involving his name.

[Seyk]

I believe the respect should come on a personal basis. Same like many peopleare saying "Do not dissrespect christians because of the majority" it also goes the other way around. If someone for example happens to have a friend or a family member who is christian and who aknowledges their faith, doesnt spit and crucify and rest of the crap christians in my expirience tend to do, yes, he will ofcourse respect him, but he will not necesseraly respect them all. I believe it should be like this aka show respect where respect is due. I grew tyred of the bullshit and claims like We need to be better then them, do not be angry and hateful blabla". I simply cannot respect them, tho I hugely respect and admire people who do. I had been dissrespected by all the christians I've met so far,sometimes you can say it was my fault for bringing up the religion topic, other times it was just because of the pentagram I wore,and in those I wouldn't even try to defend or elaborate or try to explain something about my choices, because it is useles and pointless. So, the general idea, in myopinion is, NO, we shouldn't, they dont deserve it.

[ED666]

OK i understand ur situation im currently in a catholic school and im the only satanist there sooo yea there alot people tht dont understand satanism since im wearing a pentagram most people ask em and call me evil,bad person,a confused youth but who rare the confused here the ones tht clear about its beliefs or the one tht questions its soo called creator

[Kain]

First, we should know that there are some (weak) evil spirits that are not only ruled by the Devil, but also by the God. These spirits are usually the ones that their names are not mentioned and they are called "evil spirits" or "demons" instead.

So, obviously Saul did something to deserve this punishment by God... As we see here:


"You acted foolishly," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

You must also know that in the Bible we see some Hebrew ideas that were corrected later by Jesus. Because Jesus' mission was also to correct some misconceptions people had regarding the God.

[seastorm]

I believe that it has something to do with one's definition of respect. It bothers me that, while secular ideas that are obviouslybased in falsehood are thrown out if not ridiculed outright, an idea that is useless or even toxic can be made untouchable by being lofted upon the mantle of "holiness." Personally, if a person tells me the the earth is 10,000 years old, evolution is a sham, and homosexuals are going to hell, I am going to respond outright that those ideas are stupid and dangerous. However, so long as the individual's actions remain innocuous I will show enough respect to the person to allow them to believe whatever crazy **** that they want. Now, if that same person is bombing abortion clinics and beating up 14 year olds in an alley near the site of a gay pride parade, then it becomes the individual who is dangerous and that person deserves neither respect nor mercy. Something does not deserve respect just because it holds the mantle of religion. But, by the same time, rejecting something out of hand just because it comes from a religious framework with which one does not, overall, agree can deprive an individual of an idea beneficial to their own expanding paradigm. Judge people by their actions and ideas by their merit, regardless of the faith under which they are presented.

[teeGee]

I don't think for me going to church is something i need to do though i've done that in the past. The thing is christianity is about the development of society in the Western world at least, over a couple of thousand years and it was crucial to that development. Ie we would have the world we currently live in if it wasn't for Christianity. We would probably live in a less developed society as has been the case fopr societies that did not have develop under christianity.
However that is in the past and science and democracy have really taken over from religion as the driving force of our culture and world.

I think as to the relevance of Christianity for me now it boils down to certain values about being a good person and having compassion for others.
I think it helps to keep me on path to remember those things but thats about all .

[NightPanther]

Respect is earned.....but in general no, most are not worthy, IME
Unless it is maybe a rare gnostic/cosmic Jesus or a very openminded individual.

[RÊVE]

Respect is earned.....but in general no, most are not worthy, IME
Unless it is maybe a rare gnostic/cosmic Jesus or a very openminded individual.

For us, respect is always given.. at first.

If and when one proves otherwise, they are simply no longer acknowledged.

[Kazahel]

I dont think we should have to respect any religion but I think its wise if we respect others no matter their religion.


And people probably think I'm a Christian but I dont think I am. I mean I believe Crowley's Lam is The Father, lol(He looks just like the one I spoke with), so I find it amusing when I sometimes get considered a Christian.

Many of their writings though I find interesting. Like the Gospel of Thomas(but I dont think thats even considered Christian)..



Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8416/lamq.jpg

Sometimes I think of Him as Father AbraLam.

[RÊVE]

A very familiar sigil.. }-)

[Light]

I always try and respect people and their beleifs regardless of what it is. I might not agree, with what they say or how they see things and vice versa.
In those situations, I keep the subjects light, so they then become more like aquaintances rather than close friends.

However, if I get disrespected by someone who thinks their religion , faith, beleif is the only way, I simply dismiss them , as I find life is too precious to waste and be around the wrong type of people .

We are all different and best is I beleive, that we find the ones that we can relate to, rather than making an effort trying to bear and grin people that we just don't click with.

[devakxes]

I go back and forth between this extreme hatred for the abrahamic faiths and this tolerance for them. Really, it is the people that make the religion bad. However, there are bits and pieces with those actual religions that I find to be closed minded.

I honestly don't care what others believe. I don't like most fundamentalists because most fundamentalists don't like me. If they act like they like me, it is because they are scared of me or want to change me. Correction, they want to FIX me, like I'm broken or something.

There is so much evil done by these religions, in the name of God. They say it is okay though because God said so, or because they asked God for forgiveness. I follow a philosophy of personal responsibility, so the idea of doing something that I am ashamed of or guilty of, I would take responsibility for. I did it because I desired to do it. I'm not going to say I did it because a God told me to do so. I'm also not going to be a hypocrite and do something that I am not guilty of and then go to church and pray for forgiveness.

But there are other people in other religions that are just as bad. The Brahmins in India are supposed to be chaste and elite. They are supposed to be pure and holy. Yet many brahmins due to their higher class/caste indulged in behaviors and things that are considered immoral. All because they had the status and the money. While the poor are expected to be chaste and not do any of the things the brahmins do... and perform ascetic practices to escape the pain of their poor, under privileged living conditions.

I judge the individual. I don't care what they believe in, as long as it doesn't restrict my own beliefs and it doesn't hurt anyone intentionally. Let me live my life and I will let you live yours. Restrict my life and I will destroy yours.

[saintcj]

We should respect Christianity because Jesus Christ is real and the only way to salvation!

[thisoldhippy420]

I've had a big debate on this for awhile with myself. part of me says yes, jesus died on the cross so we should have respect.

1st off there is no more proof that Christ exist beyound the Holy Bible, the Koran, The Book of Mormon, or the Gnostic texts. These texes where written by followers of those faiths. There is nothing, to my knowledge, outside of these Abrhimic groups. Nothing from sources written from outsiders looking inwards.

2nd I have friends who are christian and thay know that I'm a Satanist. Thay don't get preachy nor do I. You just have to study their manerisms. LaVey's "The Satanic Witch" thats is a good start on character analyse. In the actual book, he has an extinsive bibliography, though I'm not sure about the .pdf version. I had a .pdf version a long time ago that didn't have the bibliography in it.

[thisoldhippy420]

Josh McDowell is a minester and by proxy has a biased to prove the existance of Christ. The people he sites lived after the crucifixion/resurrection of Christ. Allow me to brack it down:
Jesus Christ/Nazareth (c.5 BC/BCE ? c.30 AD/CE) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
Pliny the Younger (61 AD ? ca. 112 AD) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger
Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 ? AD 117)
Suetonius http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus
Thallus (c. 50-75ad) http://www.christianthinktank.com/jrthal.html
Phlegon "Phlegon of Tralles was a Greek writer and freedman of the emperor Hadrian, who lived in the 2nd century AD." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegon_of_Tralles
Mara Bar-Serapion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Bar-Serapion
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/serapion.html
Lucian (c. A.D. 125 ? after A.D. 180) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus (ca. 160 ? ca. 220 A.D.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian
The fact that most if not all of these guys where born in Greece after Christs time seems to makes a misstep in the logic that if you use there writings as proof that Christ is not a myth. So I ask where are the documents written between c.5 BC ? c.30 AD by someone liveing in or around Jerusalum and Nazareth?

[thisoldhippy420]

What are the Jewish texts? I'd like to skim over these texts for myself.

[Mr.Atheist]

Why not respecting Christians? You LaVeyans are actually atheists so you are not stronger than we Christians are... So why not respecting us since we respect you? (We dont respect your beliefs because you have no beliefs since you are actually atheists but we respect you - At least I do...)

The Christian church has done many bad things but you dont have to judge all Christians just by the mistakes of some... I mean these people have chosen to be God's priests, did God choose them to be His priests? Did we Christians choose them to be God's priests? No! So why not respect us? We actually want the same thing: Peace in the world. And don't tell me LaVeyans (atheists) don't want peace but war because this will be a lie.

Besides LaVey himself was a Theistic Satanist not an atheist, it's just that Church of Satan changed their main objective after his death just to separate themselves from the satanic murders involving his name.

Well first of all, you imply that all of you christians respect us...Which is false. I myself have seen it countless times. It seems christians (not all of them, but nevertheless a lotof them) see it as their duty to spot the pentagram around my neck and lecture me on the error of my ways. In the Metro, the train, in the coffee shop...So in my experience, most christians do not respect satanists.

If god is so powerfull, than he should be the one "chosing" his priests. And the evil propagated through the centuries by christians are not actions of a few, but of the majority and the Christian Intitution itself. Now if you say you are against the actions that are championned by your institution (of whom you are the diciple) than technically you are a heretic. Because, the church and its leaders are supposed to "appointed" by god.

You say we have no beliefs, but you christians mix and confound two different concepts: belief and values. Let me explain. The christian values are incorporated into the faith, as means to make these values the only ones that are acceptable because they are transmited to you by god. The world belief does not only have religious connotations. It means an oppinion, a conviction, a firm confidence, trust. All the belief you put into your god and HIS values, i put into myself. My own PERSONNAL values, (which, incedently, may be very different from another satanist) it put into myself. I am a god. To me my life is sacred. I trust in myself, in my powers (not in a supernatural way). I believe i can accomplish almost anything were i to chose to do so, if i put every single fibre of my being into it. So you see, i do have beliefs. Just not in the way you consider we should believe.

Now you say that we do not want peace inthe world. That is false. I myself live my life in Peace as much as is humanly possible. Yet i do not shy away from violence and conflict when agressed or when it is the only solution that bring less consequence to myself (or more benefits).
I think that violence and conflict is in the human nature, and are therefore natural and unevitable. A world without violence would be a world without humans, animals etc. Basically a world without life. We embrace violence and war as a principle of nature, on the same level as peace and love. Contrairy to the christians who deny it and chose to close their eyes to that reality. If violence was a disease, and christianity the cure, it wouldnt exist on earth any more, after two milennias of their faith in this world. And personally i have met countless of violent christians.

And what you stae on Lavey is false tales spread by people who had to gain by dirtying his name. And even where it true, LaVeys life and his doings are of no importance to me, his legacy (his books, philosophy and religion) is what matters to me. And even if LaVey had never even existed or wrote the Satanic Bible, i would still be, act and think exactly as i am, exept that i would probably not label myself as a Satanist.

I hope i have helped broaden your understanding of what satanism is about.

Mr.Atheist

[Cartoon Character]

I'm not sure that "respect" is really the appropriate word here. And I assume we're not talking about Christianity in its original form as it was intended to be. I agree with some other posts here in that we should respect the rights of others to believe and live in a way of their own choosing, so long as those beliefs and lifestyles don't infringe upon the rights and lives of others. A good friend of mine is a Stregone and Grimas in La Vecchia, and he tells me that his grandmother used to say that if one were to liken spiritual and religious matters to a pearl necklace, most people see their respective pearl as the "right" way, but the true religion is actually the string that holds the pearls together.

That being said, neither he, myself, or any other pagan friends, be they Satanist, Wiccan, Buddhist or whatnot have much time for Christianity as it is commonly viewed and practiced. The argument could be made that any and all belief systems have their inherent "flaws", and while this is true, I think the issue regarding this is a matter of degree. No Luciferian, for example, has ever invaded someone's homeland to kill, rape and pillage in the name of "spreading the Light", so to speak, nor is it part of their ideology to let a child die in an emergency room unnecessarily because Jehovah wills it. I have no problem with the notion that Christ was an avatar (and Moses a wizard, to take it a step further), respecting that premise and leaving it at that. I do, however, have a problem with the idea some Christians have regarding the monopolization of religion and faith, as if they have stumbled upon something new here. One can be on a slippery slope when claiming that someone's belief system is unequivocally bad, regardless of their standpoint. So, I don't feel I can tell Christians that they are all "wrong", but I can most certainly disagree with the ways they often display their righteousness.

[Cartoon Character]

I'm not familiar with that book, but wasn't he part of the Theosophical Society? I'll have to check it out. Thanks!

[Aradia]

I think we SHOULD respect ALL religions. Just because we don't agree with something doesn't mean we should not respect it.

[Cartoon Character]

I agree Aradia. I respect it in theory, but the actual practice sometimes makes me wonder.

[Light]

Yes, I agree in theory.
However, if a religion causes harm, emotional damage, fear/ terror, brainwashes to control, etc.. In other words is abusive, to it's followers...then how can one say, it's fine.
Ones sprituality (what a person beleives in), is a different matter. It is very personal and I can respect that.



‎"The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything."

Einstein

[Cartoon Character]

Are we going by the premise that spirituality is the "core" or foundational essence of religion? Or, said another way, that what we call spirituality is basically religion stripped of its political/dogmatic trappings and agendas?

[Light]

Are we going by the premise that spirituality is the "core" or foundational essence of religion? Or, said another way, that what we call spirituality is basically religion stripped of its political/dogmatic trappings and agendas?

I see religion separate from spirituality. Ones sprituality is ones core belif.
However, some see it differently...

[Cartoon Character]

That's the stance I've always taken too. That, and the notion that religious devotion in the "organized" sense is essentially an amplified and politicized belief in magick. Which makes it all the more ironic that so many followers of major world religions see so-called magickal systems as being evil and untrue. To me, believing and intending that wine turn to blood in the literal sense is a magickal practice, and the psalms of the New Testament reads like a grimoire. Just my opinion, but I'm sure that at some point, however long ago, they were intended to be spells. Must be nice to change the "rules" mid-game, so to speak.

[Light]

lol..yes, so true..:)

The problem here is, that accepting something just for the sake of it, is actually a principle.
A principle is made up in ones mind, through subjective preception and conditioning of the environment. Therefore, a principle is really an illusion, as the keeper of the principle does not question it's validity, but blindly believes it.
Principles , as far as I see it, are dangerous, and keeps the person static, it's destructive to oneself and the environment around them.

[Cartoon Character]

I'm glad to see that you agree with me there. Has anyone actually used any of the psalms in that context? Would anyone be interested in trying that out? Hey Light, why don't you volunteer for that? :) Try Psalms 143 or 58 and let me know how it turns out. As a reward, you can introduce me to Luciferian ideology and practice. A win-win situation for me, huh?

[Light]

Sorry, not interested in delving into Christianity, lol...
So many other books to read. I have long list and it keeps growing. One has to prioritase, and Christianity is not one of those..hehe..;)

[Cartoon Character]

Yeah, I'm not too interested there either. That stuff is too scary for me! You know, all the talk of murder, rape, slavery, blood sacrifice to whomever, etc. And all that magick stuff with the main character guy working all that sorcery is just waaaaaaaay too far out there! Blasphemer! :) Although, I probably would have turned those rocks into bread if I were hungry enough. And I could DEFINITELY live with turning water into booze. I'd be a hell of a lot more popular too. Just sayin'...

[Phenrir]

In the past few days ive begun writing down my feelings and meanings about the christianity.

well yea, christianity should be respected for what it is, a bunch of priests running around banging some small kids within their safe walls, under the safe hands of their pope.

Christianity is nothing but a group of manipulating priests who speak some shitty words they dont even believe in, or live by.
Christianity has in so many generations, well since the medieval, abused and stolen money from the people, even today every man pays a little bit to the priests, like it or not(well at least in DK). Why does the society choose side? they should definetly be neutral about religion.

In primary school every kid, black / white, muslim / satanist has a subject called Christianity, not religion, but Christianity. So every kid is forced to learn about this religion who has tortured our minds to think that we actually die if we has one or more other gods besides "the lord" him self!? and every kid gets the opportunity to get confirmed in the name of god / the christian, in the age of 13! WTF is that all about, get the kids some more time to get his/her life together.

Let me just say this, I hate everything about the christianity, if one of you guys out there is christian then please answer me on this, how can you live with yourself? when you know that the religious community that you support is the reason of so many meaningless bloodbaths. Jews has paid its time, well a lot of times, but i mean, Hitler is nothing beside.

Phenrir

[Light]

I don't think most christians see it this way , so they have no trouble sleeping at night. The whole idea of christianity, I find, is putting their head in the sand and following whatever someone up top is telling them to do as someone higher up, is commuicating to them, what to say and how to live..lol..so it really is for 'follower' type of personalaties that don't like to take responsability for themselves.
It's hard one to understand, if you are the type that makes decisions based on your own intellectual conclusions, rather than what someone else tells you.

As far as chilldren in schools, parents do have a choise of pulling their kids out of scripture classes. So ultimately the parents have to take responsability of what and who, is teaching their children about spirituality, beliefs, religions, etc.
I do believe, there should be theology lessons, rather than scriputre lessons , as it would then educate the children about different cultures as well. It could become more of a general studies class that could go together with the history lessons, for a broader understanding of the subject. But neutrality would have to be the key, where the class being taught could not have a slant or bias towards any religion or belief system.
This way the children would have a better grasp on things and eventually as adults make their own decisions in what they themselves believe in.

[Cartoon Character]

Yeah, personal responsibility and neutrality regarding religious/spiritual matters of any kind seems to be a bit of a sticking point there. We all have personal biases (that's why we like what we like and dislike what we don't), but some folks take that WAY too far in my opinion. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of Christians I know have comparatively little knowledge of how their religion actually came to be, much less a working knowledge of what and how it was originally intended. That being said, most would probably convert to something else in a heart beat if they did know such things. Buddhism, maybe? The Buddha performed miracles too, so maybe they could find some solace in that.

[Phenrir]

I think that the society should be total neutral about religion.

Call the subject "Religion" not Christianity, and teach our children about other religions.
Children should'nt get the offer to get confirmed in the christian church, only if the family or the child seek it, and the period of preparation of the confirmation, should be voluntary, and something you can get if you seek it. The school should'nt be involved with this at all!

[Light]

I agree.
Schools need to stay out of it and start teaching rather than preaching.

[Forsakenx]

Christianity is slavery with an elaborate name. Why should I respect the religion that depressed me to the point of suicide? I still have issues with it, but, since asked, if you so desire to respect them, you shouldn't ask us. Just do it. Whether you scream it or express it silently, it's strictly up to you.

-Forsaken

[Roxanne26]

As long they don't bother me and do not try to "Get me on the good side of life" I'm fine with them.
I see it like this:
I will strike down those who dare to insult my own belief so they have the right to do the same to me.
I also agree with: Phenrir. Schools shouldn't teach about religions but about stuff that matters, you can learn about your religion in church. But the same is for politics and other matters that contribute for the mass.

The only thing is that they preach to let me hear the voice of god... so... why don't they shut up, be cease now I only hear your voice -_-!

Edit:

The only thing I personally really like to do is to ask questions about the many things of Christians that doesn't match. Take this 2 for example (and/or the one above):

Fact A:
If you sin, If you don't believe in god or another god. If you use magick or something like that. You're going to hell and burn for eternity. Says the bible, priests etc.

Fact B:
The devil (what god is of heaven is the devil of hell) is the ultimate nemesis for god. So they are in constant war. Says the bible, priests etc.

Conclusion:
God is good and the devil is evil.
If you do something evil you're going to hell.
Then why should the devil torture you until eternity?
He is the embodiment of evil so if you sins, he likes it. So if you gonna believe the Christians,
he's gonna torture you because he's archenemy says so while he actually likes you?
That sounds wrong in so many ways.

[just me]

I would like to apologize for any Christian who has ever cheated, hurt, stabbed you in the back, or treated you badly. Really. Truthfully, all Christians succumb to exactly that: sin. If they tell you differently, they don't believe in their own Bible. That is why they all go to church on Sunday: to receive forgiveness for everything they couldn't prevent. It is the goal of all Christians to avoid hurting, cheating, etc. The thing is, they know they can't.

[Shaolin32]

Here is the problem, people who follow christianity, for the most part do not even know much about their own religion. They, most, only know what they have been told about it by someone else. Ghost of shaolin even pointed out that they haven't even done any historical research on something they are supposed to base their life on. This being said true christianity has been perverted, anyone who has actually read all of the monotheistic scriptures should know this. For example jesus said to his followers do not build churches, to spread the word the way he did and that he would build his church when he returned. Christianity is nothing more than a path of mysticism. Remember, the whole speech about faith allowing you to perform the same miracles? This is true if you understand that the true base of christianity was actual spiritual work and not going to church every sunday (which by their own religion is a blasphemous day to worship anyway) to give your money over. everyone here is getting mad at a religion when its not the religion its self that is at fault but the evil people who run it and the ignorant people who blindly follow it (or any belief for that matter) that are to blame. I will tell you in all my research I have come back to the same conclusion every time, jesus was a mystic, a mage, a magician trying to push mankind towards ascension. Its really not his fault that some roman emperor would see his followers as a political power tool, remember he formed his own version of christianity and anyone who did not conform were either imprisoned or killed.

[Shaolin32]

We should respect them. By being bigots, we end up becoming like them - mindless animals in human form.

However, respecting them does not mean going and allowing them to run us over or tell us what to do. It means co-existing with them. They shouldn't be trying to force their beliefs on us and we shouldn't be trying to force their beliefs on them. Everyone is on their own spiritual path and some may genuinely walk the path of mainstream christian religions.

I understand the hate though. It isn't easy being condemned and such.
I also hate the concept of how people claim that goodness comes from God and evil from Satan. Both exist within the human mind and both concepts can be manipulated. Conscience has nothing to do specifically with morality. One does not feel guilt for doing bad, they feel shame. They only feel guilt for hurting another.

Lavey also encourages people to think for themselves. So don't hold everything he says as truth engraved in stone. As he himself says, he is but a man. He doesn't claim to be divinely inspired by the devil, but by Himself.

Jesus wasn't originally a christian idea. Before christianity, after Jesus died... there was the Gnostics. After that a couple people ( some of the apostles and high officials) came together to build a church centered around the teachings of christ. The first war in the name of Jesus was on what he was. ''Is he the son of god or is he a lesser spirit?'' Before the Gnostics there was the worshippers of Dionysus, Demeter, Mithra, Osiris, all dying and resurrection deities. The spirit is the same just the personification is different. The true meaning of Jesus is lost because people have perverted his words to mean other things.

I do not like the god of the jews. I do not like '' The Father'' or Yahweh. But that is my own personal issues. One of them being that I am gay and I refuse to worship a god who condemns love. I also refuse to worship a god who desires prostration. I bow to no one. There are other issues but that is but a few, so I do really understand where you are coming from.

I do agree with this however....let me do say though, I am not gay but my brother is and I still love him very much. I want you to know god in the christian bible only talked about homosexuality a few times and its not any larger of a sin than having sex out of wedlock. Peoples prejudice have made it a big deal, but the god of christianity does not hate you. I personally believe in a God, but my perceptions of him (i only use him as a more proper term then it, God, however is beyond gender) are far different from the jews, christians and islam. I do believe that they were honest attempts at telling the truth, however, the jews fell to the zionist, the christians fell to the romans/ catholic church (even though other churches broke off, the damage was irreparable), and the muslims to the sunni and shiat (I'm sure I spelled those wrong) which is funny in the fact that their prophets actually did predict that this very thing would happen, "the great deception". All religions understand the true God. Let s look at all of the major ones; hinduism, judaism, daoism, buddhism, confucius, christianity and islam. Hinduism originated in india, having the oldest texts amongst these "living" religions I put it first, its original text in sanskrit. They believe in many gods, including the one God that made them all. Their master god so to say had multiple forms and was both male and female. Sheeva was the popular "mother form" of this god. Hindu and yoga alike believe in akasha, a substance or consciousness where all things were created from. The God of the jews I think needs no explaining. The daoist believe in a source or a creator we have to reach thru spiritual awakening. Confucius was a mixture of chinese philosophies and political philosophies of its time. Buddhism stated that there is no need for a god, but in turn they do believe in a source and that love and compassion emanate from it. Christianity and islam I think also do not need to be explained. In the end I dont care if you believe in a god or not because personally I believe the point of life is spiritual growth. I also believe in letting people do this in their own way, I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter

[Cartoon Character]

As someone I know is sometimes fond of saying, it is what it is.

[Phenrir]

of course we should respect the christianity.
You should respect everyone you meet, dont need to like or agree with them, or of any kind bow for their way of spirituel ways.
Be critic, meet them with a scowling eye, but respect them..

Respect is important!

[Phenrir]

of course! as i said, Respect is important, and yea it should only be given to those who are respect themeselves/worth respecting.

But then again, who will give respect to those who arent respecting themselves, what can they give, you would/could respect? Nothing..
Without respecting yourself, you can not accomplish that big things, and it is most often because of bigger things you respect other people for.

[Cartoon Character]

Respecting someone who may not respect themselves for whatever reason may well be the catalyst by which they find self respect. Often, people lack self respect because they have been disrespected, abused and downgraded by others to the point where they don't feel they are worthy of that respect.

[Dusted Agore]

I Respect Christianity in the same way some one can respect a enemy.

If you respect them then you will most likely make a realistic assessment of them which will help not underestimate them and This will allow you to make realistic and workable plans to defeat them. ;)

[Shaolin32]

why are you trying to defeat anyone? You should learn to defeat yourself first, and not to be rude or get into to much chinese philosophy, but that takes a lifetime to accomplish. See hardly anyone follows true christianity, if they did then they would know not to cast stones. But if all you can do is hate and disrespect them than you are no different then they. Some people here seem to have a lot of hate, which doesn't help your magical practices. Let it go and let them be who they are, they are for the most part ignorant and full of fear; so I ask you brothers and sisters, worry about you as a person and take pity for those who can not do the same.

[Ravenwolf]

To be honest I would love to dissect this but it wouldn't end well.

Lets just close this thread with the old adage of "one becomes what they hate" and leave it at that, shall we?

Personally I respect all religions, as I believe should every one else.
But is it not funny that one world wide religion, that preaches peace for all, are the one at the front line of war. The one that preaches free will, are the ones first to critisize. The one who preach not to worry about poverty are the riches business in the world. The ones who teaches forgiveness are the first ones to slander and judge and cast the first stone. I also do find it funny that according to them, vanity is a sin, but they are the most vain of all...just a thought. Personally I have nothing against them, I love debating with them, as they the biggest religion in the world that and in many ways derived from the old study of Wicca, funny is it not. And by the way, if magic was sinful, why do the cathlics use it in there churches...

[Dusted Agore]

why are you trying to defeat anyone? You should learn to defeat yourself first, and not to be rude or get into to much chinese philosophy, but that takes a lifetime to accomplish. See hardly anyone follows true christianity, if they did then they would know not to cast stones. But if all you can do is hate and disrespect them than you are no different then they. Some people here seem to have a lot of hate, which doesn't help your magical practices. Let it go and let them be who they are, they are for the most part ignorant and full of fear; so I ask you brothers and sisters, worry about you as a person and take pity for those who can not do the same.

by using ;) i meant it as a joke..

[valoursatanas]

I do have friends who are Christians or Catholics. But as long as they do not attack my philosophy, I shall not counter-attack with my arguments on their flawed doctrines. I respect them for who they are as persons, but not their philosophies since they do not already agree with mine (probably too blind to see what's on the other side of the argument).

Anyway, God is always talking **** about the devil all the time, and the devil don't even give a damn. That's a real man I must say.

All paths are equal. By this I mean that every path one takes leads to his or her own enlightenment (whatever floats your boat). Each philosophy or sect has its own heights and depths. About the Christian sheep, it would be their mistake to judge and condemn us because modern Christianity per se is a teaching that's already so perverted beyond recognition. At the very least, we are still evolving...

Remember the Tree of Life: The LHP (Crown, Understanding, Severity, Glory, Kingdom), & the RHP (Crown, Wisdom, Mercy, Victory, Kingdom).

BUT, that is just my opinion. :-)

[chestermccoy]

Just had to chime in with my two cents here. Lavey does say "and he who says 'thou shalt not' is my mortal foe", however it could be easily interpreted that he is referencing those who founded Christianity and gave birth to its "lies". Christianity must gain some respect as to the incredible heights of power and influence it has wrought on humanity, if only for that alone. Furthermore, stupidity is a Satanic cardinal sin, and looking down on Christians because of what they believe is just not smart, there are simply too many of them for that to work out well for you. Just some food for thought.

[AlchemicEnchanter]

Fist off, treat others with respect, no matter what they do to you. You're fool to think otherwise.

Looking at the Christian faith (which I am a member of, I just practice sorcory) I find it to be very similar to the Wiccan faith. Look at it like this: In each faith, there are the legitimates. Most of the time, these are your priests, and devoted followers. Then you have the extras. These are the people that pretend to follow a faith for either acceptance or shock value. So while there is the the true faith, there will always be those that 'go to chrch' (and that's it, don't actually lead a Christian life) and some wiccans, (who only follow for the facade, or shock value.). In either case the difference is in depth and knowledge. You learn more about yourself and the creator through following a religion, so naturally a true follower understands the ways of the God/Gods. This is to say that their personality has DEPTH. Not the shallow facade to hide insecurity.

So how does one tell the difference? It's obvious. Jonny say's he's a Christian. He just got ****-faced last night. Does that sound like a follower of the faith? Heck no. Same goes for Wicca. Jennifer says she's a wiccan. She spends her time staring angrily at people and threatening them with curses. Sound Wiccan? Again, no way.

I would say the same goes for satanists, but I'll be honest, most of you guys are generally close-minded and hard to find anyone of the faith who legitimately follows for purposes other than shock and skin-deep values. Just sayin.

So should we respect Christianity? YES! Everyone is treated with acceptance for their decisions outside of a faith, so why should this be any different? Those who are true followers aren't hard to spot, and make the conscious choice to live for the better, and not hypocrisy.

[chestermccoy]

Well, It is a subject upon which, as a Laveyan Satanist, evidence could point toward either end. My grievances with Christianity have nothing to do with true Christians or hypocrites, which, as you said, you find in every religion (From the Satanist side they exist as those who have no investment in their philosophies, but rather go for shock value), but it is a fundamental disagreement with the entire structure of Christianity. Now, lets not go into reasons or merits, as I do not wish to get involved in a religious debate, I was just seeking to clarify that its not Christians (be they unrepresentative or not) but the religion itself. Just because a person is a true Christian does not, in my eyes (and I am only speaking for myself, not Satanism) warrant them respect. Their actions are the tokens by which I measure their worth, and most of those I look for have little to do with religion at all. For example, Alchemicenchanter, I respect you for approaching this as a discussion, and not trolling this thread or harassing its members.

[Sweet]

Sure why not, there's a difference between respect and agreeing with something :P

[Iza]

We should respect all it makes us better people and also we rise a hell of a lot higher.

[mobilapplokasjon]

Respect your enemies or you will be defeated.

Well said, every one should have this spirit.

[Belasko]

Jesus just respect everyone no one is a fucking enemy unless you make it so, they are just different. Grow up assholes.