Donald Michael Kraig's Modern Magick

[Danhathon]

Would most people advise this book as a good starting point?

There are so many practices of magick that I'm not sure which to engage in. I really like the Kabballah practice but I find many, many other things interesting.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to practice several things later on would it?

[Kem74]

I have the book and am working through it at the moment. A friend gave it to me as a good starting point. I've had it for 3 months and have just finished Chapter 2, performing (or trying to) the rituals each day.

[Twilight Siren]

said by Kem74

I have the book and am working through it at the moment. A friend gave it to me as a good starting point. I've had it for 3 months and have just finished Chapter 2, performing (or trying to) the rituals each day.

You are EXACTLY where I am. Nice

[Kem74]

:-)

and how are you finding it? It seems quite straight forward and was given to me by someone who has been involved with the occult for a number of years. I've tried reading Crowley's "Book 4" at the same time and it seems the grounding in Kraig's more basic text is necessary before tackling something like that seriously.

[ZeldaFitz]

It is a good book, and he is a good person, and a friend.

[MrK]

I know my brother liked it. Personally I stay away from most books that have the word modern in the title or spells magic with a (k). Simply like the old stuff better.

[ZeldaFitz]

I read everything even popular mechanics.

[MrK]

Not saying all modern stuff is bad but its been an inflation in modern magic that I do not find positive. Mostly caused by bad research or rather they base their conclusion on already faulty material. I have also found that most modern magicians have a very different opinion then I have on what magic really is. It seems like to most modern magicians it is mainly an inner search or a way to either get close to God or become as a God them self. For me magic is mainly about getting things and not a way of reaching some kind of higher self.

All that being said most of my magic friends have started with Kraigs book and most of them have done great so it is not a criticism towards the book i any way.

[crowley666]

[QUOTE=MrK;26853] It seems like to most modern magicians it is mainly an inner search or a way to either get close to God or become as a God them self. For me magic is mainly about getting things and not a way of reaching some kind of higher self.

To me those material things are a side effect of a developed higher self, and creating a positive karma for one's self. one for ten, sometimes you get two , every once and awhile yah get more then you gave. Always expecting ten for ten is not the way karma works unless one wants to strictly stay in the material world.

[MrK]

Is it not funny how everything today is called "inner" something. Like inner magic, inner alchemy, inner process and so on. Crowley saying that the Goetia demons are just a part of your inner mind. Not just Crowley but most modern magicians saying that there is nothing but the self.

Everything is replaced with words like inner, higher self, gnosis, godhead and so on. Another interesting feature of many modern magicians is how they always try to speak as mystical as possible. Something I also think comes from Crowley. Often people judge a modern magicians skill from how little they understand of what the magician is actually talking about. Modern magicians often live in a world where they think everything is a "blind" and everything actually means something other then what the text is actually saying. Not even Kafka was as paranoid as many modern magicians are.

Think I am gonna post this on my blog as well.

[crowley666]

certaintly, you believe a symbol can have a different meaning to different people. It might be the case that these differences cause a spirtual friction. But by all means keep trying to turn lead into gold.

[zero]

sometime the only way to explain the unexplainable is by symbols, like how do you explain infinity to its fullness, how do you explain a vision that you understand only in its abstract but know whithout words, words are limited by reason.

[MrK]

certaintly, you believe a symbol can have a different meaning to different people. It might be the case that these differences cause a spirtual friction. But by all means keep trying to turn lead into gold.

Considering the results people like Lisiewski, Regardie and Frater Albertus have had in alchemy during my lifetime I do not see why that would not be possible.

The work Lisiewski did on making the homunculus is rather amazing if you ask me.

Buy the book and read for your self. Amazon.com: Israel Regardie & The Philosophers Stone: The Alchemical Arts Brought Down to Earth (9781935150893): Joseph C. Lisiewski, Mark Stavish: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Regardie-Philosophers-Stone-Alchemical/dp/1935150898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265671270&sr=1-1)

[crowley666]

not only can lead turn to gold. It is being done right now (oh your going to hate this) inside me.

[MrK]

not only can lead turn to gold. It is being done right now (oh your going to hate this) inside me.

LOL true I hated that:)

[MrK]

sometime the only way to explain the unexplainable is by symbols, like how do you explain infinity to its fullness, how do you explain a vision that you understand only in its abstract but know whithout words, words are limited by reason.

Ohh I agree completely with that. The bible is filled with examples of that and so are many other texts. What I turn against is when people say that the sword in the grimoires is a "blind" and that it is just a symbol for your inner strength and stuff like that. It just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for the material to me.

[crowley666]

LOL true I hated that:)

I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor. Now if the two of us could get past petty name calling, or sarcastic comments we could possibly be friends:cool:

[MrK]

I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor. Now if the two of us could get past petty name calling, or sarcastic comments we could possibly be friends:cool:

I think we can work that out:)

[crowley666]

Ohh I agree completely with that. The bible is filled with examples of that and so are many other texts. What I turn against is when people say that the sword in the grimoires is a "blind" and that it is just a symbol for your inner strength and stuff like that. It just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for the material to me.

It's good to manifest the mind in the material. In turn the symbols begin manifesting in the mind. Without the mind though the sword, for example, is simply a pointy steel object and does not represent ones reason. In turn I could use a pogo stick to represent my reason, but would my mind believe me,orbetterput wouldn't it be easier for the mind to manifest it's image of might and reason in an item made of steel, with a hilt, used to stab things. Not to mention all the power the sword has had put into it, throughout the ages in the collective unconcious. No offense, but I've seen you apply a few times Crowley found the tools irrelvant and this is simply not the case.

[MrK]

Ohh Crowley actually used the whole enchilada of tools. Not that it helped him much with the Goetia though but he had the tools:) The sword in it self without proper preparations is useless. With the proper symbols and construction it is a very powerful tool though. Many people miss the fact that it needs to be made in a special way to have any effect and the Goetia totally misses to mention how to do that while the Key of Solomon describes this in detail.

One theory why the Goetia and some other grimoires do not mention this is something I and David Rankine have discussed a lot. During Rankine's and Skinner's research for their translation of the Veritable Key of Solomon they discovered and identified over 100 versions of the Key. They also managed to exclude a few that were mislabeled in the libraries. No other grimoire has that many different versions. Most of them just have a few and almost none over 10. This made a theory we have had for a while even more likely. We believe that the Key of Solomon was treated as a primer for magicians of those days and that it lead to things being left out of some grimoires because it was considered common knowledge back then. This would explain so much in the grimoires and the theory is gaining popularity among the grimoire people. See Davids site David Rankine (http://ritualmagick.co.uk/121/) or my blog Grimoire Magic Blogs (http://www.grimoiremagic.com/wordpress/) for more detailed information on this. Another thing that David and Stephen mentions in their The Goetia of Dr Rudd is a theory that the sword is actually supposed to made of iron and not steel. This is based on the fact that King Solomon used iron to bind many of the Demons to the temple of Solomon. Iron works very binding on demons and would hurt them even more then a correctly blessed steel sword would do. To read about that you would have to buy the book though.

Something similar to this is the trumpet mentioned in the Veritable Key of Solomon. It is not a trumpet like we think of them today but rather a horn. It will only be able to produce a few notes and is used to call on the angles while opening the ritual. What is not mentioned is what tones it should be able to play. What ton to make is something I have managed to find though and it will be revealed in my upcoming book on grimore magic as well as some other currently big question marks relating to the tools. I could go on and on about the tools and why they have to be made in a certain way to work. In my upcoming book I spend a lot of pages explaining the Lion skin demand in the Goetia for example and also give a few working alternatives. I also describe what makes it work and how to build a replacement for it.

I am totally fascinated by this stuff and I get frustrated when people do not see what I see. I am sure you feel the same way when people do not see what you see crowley666. You probably look at me as a narrow minded traditionalist of the worst kind and I look at you as someone who are way to in to the modern way of magic. I would be glad to leave this with just saying that we have completely different approaches to reach pretty much the same thing. If you can live with that and accept that we most likely will get in heated debates once in a while because we come from two rather not compatible ways of magic I do not see why we would not be able to be friends.

[MrK]

Someone who got the Goetia working just fine was actually Eliphas Levi btw. He describes in one of his books how he performed an evocation with borrowed tools in London for another person. Seems like the effects even scared him a bit. It is described somewhere in his Transcendental Magic.

[crowley666]

It's cool. I like a good debate as long as the arguements are based onempirical knowledge (not notions that DMT is as effective as commiting suicide to open your minds eye, because you haven't tried either and had no basis for the comparison you made). I think you have alot of good points to make and other then the example I stated, I don't think your narrow minded.

[MrK]

It's cool. I like a good debate as long as the arguements are based onempirical knowledge (not notions that DMT is as effective as commiting suicide to open your minds eye, because you haven't tried either and had no basis for the comparison you made). I think you have alot of good points to make and other then the example I stated, I don't think your narrow minded.

Well when it comes to drugs I simply hate them. Lost way to many friends to drugs and they messed my brother up a lot. I have actually tried quite a few drugs in my life but I want to be in control so I never got much out of them to be honest. So to me drugs just represent the worst in humans.

Today I hardly even drink anymore. Also the magic I do is based on pureness and drugs are a disaster in that kind of magic.

[crowley666]

I understand. It would have been better to say that in the first place and we could've avoided conflict, then again it led, leap by leap, to us being friends.

[MrK]

I understand. It would have been better to say that in the first place and we could've avoided conflict, then again it led, leap by leap, to us being friends.

That it did so all considered not a bad result:)

[Belphebe]

Wow! How did this change from Donald Michael Kraig's book to this?

[Sara D]

It is a book, not War and Peace, every one has to start some where.

[Kurre]

well while talking about modern magick i got a question, do i really need to work with tarot???

[Belphebe]

Yes you should learn and meditate in it, whether you are wiccan, ceremonial, pagan, druid, it is the key to the mind.