How old is Satanism..really?

[Goth_Queen]

I guess most of us have established on my previous threads that Satanism is not a creation of the "Church of Satan" and that there is VALID Satanism outside of that "church". Also, that Satanism is not "reverse Christianity", and that Satanism didn't begin when Christianity invented the Christian Devil. So...when did Satanism really start? There are ancient religions where horned gods were worshipped, including deities that now have been demonized by the Catholic Church. Satanism is very old, and believed by some Satanists to be the first religion, and its stated on a couple web pages I found in the past...but, I'd like to know what the fellow occultforums.net population thinks about it. And besides, I haven't really posted anything in a while so here is my next contribution to the site.

Have fun. :)
Hails.

[EtuMalku]

When one misunderstands what the Prince of Darkness is, then it is without doubt they will not convey 'Him' correctly to themself or to others.

I find nothing malevolent about satanism, this thinking is purely of Christian propaganda.


EM

[EtuMalku]

Perhaps you could direct me to which page of the Tao Te Ching that this Latin term is found?

[EtuMalku]

Interesting, I tend to understand Duality in a Hermetic setting, where both polar extremes are one and the same thing, not opposing forces.

[devakxes]

''Satan'' as a being/force/symbol might have existed before christianity, but from what I understand Satanism as a religion has typically been around since the knights templar, though others disagree and say that the baphomet worship was actually christian propaganda in order for the pope to justify slaying those who were equal in power to him. In this case, satanism as a religion is only 200-300 years old.

I don't understand how the age of something makes it more valid. Cavemen lived in caves and made fire out of flint... i don't understand how something new is less valid.

[EtuMalku]

Perhaps we need to define the word Satanism for all intent and purpose of this discussion.
Satanism= ?

[Goth_Queen]

Devakxes, I never said that Satanism's validity was determined by how many years its been around and in practice. Where are you getting this from?

[Goth_Queen]

Perhaps we need to define the word Satanism for all intent and purpose of this discussion.
Satanism= ?

The belief and worship of Satan as an actual deity....since I've posted this in the "Theistic Satanism" section.

[EtuMalku]

The belief and worship of Satan as an actual deity....since I've posted this in the "Theistic Satanism" section.I'm sorry, I should have been more aware.

In that case the worshiping of Satan can only be as old as the Belief system that created this personification of the 'Adversary'.

EM

[zero]

satanism is older than civilized life, though it does find a new home within. the name satanism is new, but have not the ideals been there all along?

how about a unification of duality

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2384/43896208.png
By dagion (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dagion)

[devakxes]

When has Satanism had anything to do with the unification of duality?

Satanism if anything would recognize that duality and seek to strike a sort of balance with those polarities but the destruction of those polarities is typically not a satanic ideal. A lot of satanic ideals are actually very original, some of which (mainly the ritual and fleshly aspects... and some of the metaphysical/occult aspects) are different but the philosophy and antinomian aspects of satanism are drastically different from original paganism.

Paganism is all about going and becoming in tune with nature. So how is a religion which is antinomian something that is in tune with nature? Nature is order and follows laws by it's own virtue and so one who is lawless surely has nothing to do with Nature. Satanism of all kinds focuses on the self, even theistic satanism which focuses on self-empowerment through the dark forces they work with. It should also be kept in mind that the deities which most resemble the Adversary like Hades in Greece and various others were worshipped in secret/solitary at worse and as a mystery religion at best. If you want to call the worship of such entities ''satanism'' then go right ahead but even they didn't really have an established order.... and why would they if everyone is different and everyone's Will is different? The only public worship that resembles The Adversary is Kali and Shiva and their worship is still controversial. Look at the Aghori.

The oldest record of Satanism was in the 1600s in Germany. That was when the recorded ''black mass'' happened. The worship of Baphomet was not necessarily the worship of Satan but Baphomet is considered Satan in some aspects (more like the unification of Satan and Lilith... the Adversarial force in all its' glory) and was worshipped by the knights templar who didn't agree with the crusades. The church said they were worshipping satan and killed them. This was considered the oldest aspect of satanism but since it was not recorded, it has not been actually considered the beginning of Satanism.

This is from ''The Origin of Satan'' but really you can look it up anywhere online. Just research Baphomet.

I never said btw that you said that, Goth-Queen. I said that simply because people are claiming that satanism is this age old religion when it is at least 400 years old. Sure, as a force or similar entity known by other religions he could be considered worshipped since the dawn of human kind... but Satanism as a religion is not. The only valid religion that has the same ideals as Satanism was that of the Yatuk - Dinoh, or the worship of Ahriman.

[Goth_Queen]

Ahriman, the Persian Devil? How far back does that go? Yeah, I saw "The Origin of Satan" pages, pretty interesting. Apparently it has alot to do with Ancient Egypt too.

[devakxes]

Set didn't become the bad guy until he was linked with Apep (his enemy) because of Apophis which is similar in spelling to Apep.... Apophis worshipped Set and Apophis was the ruler of lower egypt and threat to the pharohs (sp?) and thus the god was seen as something to be demonized.

The Yatuk Dinoh date back to Zurvanism when Ahriman was seen as equal to Ahura Mazda.

[devakxes]

Apophis became a symbol of Apep, Set was considered synonymous with both of them because he was worshipped by Apophis and the higher egyptian pharophs wanted nationalism and such.

It was political.

Set was said to destroy Apep nightly as Ra journeyed in the underworld.

I knew about that but I didn't know the crocodile god was more important than punisher of the dead. That's interesting... considering Maat is the Goddess of Order. It makes sense she was connected to the sun.

[EtuMalku]

Of interest to this thread as well as our satanic historians, http://www.xeper.org/maquino/nm/COS.pdf is a link to the Temple of Set's founder Dr. Aquino, and his book on The Church of Satan. The pdf. is lengthy but you can go directly to chapter One: Antecedents pg.11 to read about the cultural origins of satanism.

[Kain]

Maybe I can agree that Satanism existed before Christianity, because in the New Testament humans already knew the Devil and His angels, so I guess there were people who worshipped Him before Christ came to Earth. Now, if you are talking about this so called "ancient religion theistic Satanism", yes it is even older than the Old Testament however... If a community believes in a horned, or goat-looking God, it doesn't mean these people are Satanists. In Ancient Greece there was Typhon, in Ancient Egypt there was Set and many more, and there were people who worshipped Typhon and Set back then (they believed in all the other Gods but they choose to worship Set or Typhon - Just like Spartans who believed in the 12 Gods, but they had chosen to worship the God of War, Ares).

So... These ancient people who worshipped Typhon and Set, are Satanists in your eyes?

[EtuMalku]

I assume you are talking to me, Kain?
The Greek religions came well after Egyptian. This doesn't take anything away from their understanding, I am very fond of Greek mythology, religion and metaphysics.
Yes, Typhon is Set. Just as Hermes is Thoth, etc.
As far as I am concerned the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity & Islam) are all continuations of Persian Zoroastrian and even older Egyptian Aten religions (these are the first monotheistic systems created).

Theistic Satanists base their beliefs on the Christian devil.
Other Satanists are for the most part (in my opinion) pragmatic atheists.
Setians are followers of the Left Hand Path, in which there is an agenda.

So, no the ancient Greeks and Egyptians would not be considered Satanists, because they had nothing to do with the later created Abrahamic systems.

Set and Set alone is the archetype principle of the Left Hand Path and the Becoming of a god principle. This concept rears its beautiful head thousands of years later in the allegorical story of Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Lucifer is the Archdaemon of the East and represents the Element Air, he makes His metaphorical debut in the Testaments as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and she will not die if she eats of the fruit of knowledge, which she did and did she not die.

Lucifer brought us the Truth and our Free Will, showed us the way to either be One with God/atonement (RHP) or to be a god (LHP). Lucifer is the 'Bringer of Light' (Lux Lucis) He represents gnosis, truth and Divine knowledge.


But Lucifer is more than a metaphor for rebellion, enlightenment and advancement - as the pure creative and motive light, Lucifer may actually be the key to life itself!

The DNA within the nuclei of all cells of living creatures contains biophotons or ultra-weak proton emissions - in other words, light! A dynamic web of light constantly released and absorbed by the DNA connects cells, tissues and organs and serve as the organism's main communication network.

Lucifer is on the move inside you and me, chattering between cell and cell, rousing the cohorts of the life-force, keeping us alive and wonderful. Every man and woman is a star - and now we know we have our own inner light.


Maybe I can agree that Satanism existed before Christianity, because in the New Testament humans already knew the Devil and His angels, so I guess there were people who worshipped Him before Christ came to Earth. Now, if you are talking about this so called "ancient religion theistic Satanism", yes it is even older than the Old Testament however... If a community believes in a horned, or goat-looking God, it doesn't mean these people are Satanists. In Ancient Greece there was Typhon, in Ancient Egypt there was Set and many more, and there were people who worshipped Typhon and Set back then (they believed in all the other Gods but they choose to worship Set or Typhon - Just like Spartans who believed in the 12 Gods, but they had chosen to worship the God of War, Ares).

So... These ancient people who worshipped Typhon and Set, are Satanists in your eyes?

[Kain]

Well actually my reply was for Goth_Queen because I understood from what she / he said in the first post that she / he thinks that everyone who worshipped a horned God was a Satanist. I hope I missunderstood because this is not true of course.

Now about Greeks following the Egyptian religion I don't know if that's true, I've never read this before.

[EtuMalku]

Now about Greeks following the Egyptian religion I don't know if that's true, I've never read this before.

I don't see how you could miss it, it's been written about for centuries
Egypt: origin of the Greek culture (http://www.philipcoppens.com/egyptgreece.html)

[devakxes]

From what I read about the worship of Set and Typhon in the old days - a lot of it does seem Left Hand Path/Satanic. As does the worship of Ahriman... which was back then the truely ''averse path'' (to my knowledge). I cannot agree with the worship of the horned god though as being ''satanic''... The horned God was a nature deity and fertility deity. Granted they indulged in sex orgies and alcohol but they were still all about the natural order. Set, Typhon, and Ahriman were not at all concerned about it - rather they wanted to create their own order... for they realized that all order is temporary and to be subservient to a ''universal dogma'' would be a waste of time and effort.

But Satanism as in the worship of the biblical satan, I don't believe this to be older than christianity since christianity created Satan. Before this the jews feared many fallen angels and demonic entities but there was no personal head honcho who controlled them until the new testament. Satan before this was considered to be an angel sent by god to obstruct and test the faith of those who followed God. To the jews, the only thing that is supream is God.

The only possible head honcho that could have existed was Samael. Who in some texts was still not the enemy of God - putting him in the status of Gevurah on the tree of life in the Kabbalah. This is why a lot of the apocryphal texts have been removed from the bible because a lot of what the jewish religion is - is mysticism. Thus they don't follow each other.

[Kain]

I don't see how you could miss it, it's been written about for centuries
Egypt: origin of the Greek culture (http://www.philipcoppens.com/egyptgreece.html)
First, it's obvious that the author of this article is from Egypt or he just loves Egypt and hates Greece since he claims that everything we knew about Greek philosophy, culture and religion originates from Egypt. This is obviously mistaken. We can't compare Pythagoras' philosophy with Egypt's philosophy. It is a fact that Egypt's culture was primitive compared with Greek culture. He even claims that death was the end for Greek culture. That's not true. There was Hades in which souls went when they die. They also had to place two coins on the eyes of the dead so they can pay the boatman to take them to the other side of the lake which was Hades. The world of the dead. However many dead people in Greek history are appeared again though they are supposed to be dead.

[devakxes]

First, it's obvious that the author of this article is from Egypt or he just loves Egypt and hates Greece since he claims that everything we knew about Greek philosophy, culture and religion originates from Egypt. This is obviously mistaken. We can't compare Pythagoras' philosophy with Egypt's philosophy. It is a fact that Egypt's culture was primitive compared with Greek culture. He even claims that death was the end for Greek culture. That's not true. There was Hades in which souls went when they die. They also had to place two coins on the eyes of the dead so they can pay the boatman to take them to the other side of the lake which was Hades. The world of the dead. However many dead people in Greek history are appeared again though they are supposed to be dead.

Obviously you don't actually read anything that any article stated. I won't waste my time trying to correct you.

[EtuMalku]

Yes Soddex, it is fascinating! You know that the Serpent is Ouroboros and Leviathan, our dragon mythology etc. It is the principle of the cycles of the ordered universe. Very cool pagan stuff, although hated by the developing Abrahamic faiths and their political Pawns and hence this Serpent had to be demonized.
I find it interesting that they found an 70 000 year old snake-god in Botswana. It has for a long time been a symbol for wisdom and eternal life while hebrew and some asian religions has seen it as evil and a devil. Do you believe that the serpent has any connection to satan earlier than the hebrew and asian stories tell? And if so, is it possible that satan was worshiped in Botswana 70 000 years ago?

Edit: Geographic Travels: 70,000 Year Old Snake God Discovered (http://www.geographictravels.com/2006/12/70000-year-old-snake-god-discovered.html)

My dear friend devakxes,
Your post on Set/Typhon and Ahriman is spot on! I agree with everything you said. There is no 'Satanism' without the Christian faith, the Horned God is Pan, the Nietzsche Satyr that embodies the Dionysian man in his wild and 'horny' genius!!


EM

[Kain]

Obviously you don't actually read anything that any article stated. I won't waste my time trying to correct you.


It was the standard belief in antiquity that Pythagoras had undertaken extensive travels, and had visited not only Egypt, but Arabia, Phoenicia, Judaea, Babylon, and even India, for the purpose of collecting all available knowledge, and especially to learn information concerning the secret or mystic cults of the gods.[16] The journey to Babylon is possible, and not very unlikely. That Pythagoras visited Egypt, may be more probable, and many ancient writers asserted this.[17] Enough of Egypt was known to attract the curiosity of an inquiring Greek, and contact between Samos and other parts of Greece with Egypt is mentioned.[18]

It is not easy to say how much Pythagoras learned from the Egyptian priests, or indeed, whether he learned anything at all from them. There was nothing in the symbolism which the Pythagoreans adopted which showed the distinct traces of Egypt. The secret religious rites of the Pythagoreans exhibited nothing but what might have been adopted in the spirit of Greek religion, by those who knew nothing of Egyptian mysteries. The philosophy and the institutions of Pythagoras might easily have been developed by a Greek mind exposed to the ordinary influences of the age. Even the ancient authorities note the similarities between the religious and ascetic peculiarities of Pythagoras with the Orphic or Cretan mysteries,[19] or the Delphic oracle.[20]
Credits: Wikipedia...

btw you dont need to do many things... just think that mythology, philosophy, mathimatics, geometria, biology, physics, astronomy, astrology, theater, hypocrisy etc. etc. etc. these are ALL Greek words so we don't need to think too much to make a conclusion about Ancient Greece's significance in the whole science / art thingy...

[EtuMalku]

The IndoEuropeans would be the ones to look at for some of the first organized faiths. When you think about it, there were first nomadic tribes that were endlessly wandering from food source to food source, herding etc. An rather taxing and time consuming life.

When these tribes learned how to cultivate the earth and could stay in one place, everything changed. Now the seasons, the cycles all became extremely vital to their existence and given more time to sit in one place and 'think' for a change, they devised personifications for these seasonal changes and cycles, hence many of our primordial archetypes were created.

Earth based religions came into being at this point, and I would agree with you Soddex that these would be Man's first and finest belief systems.

Now, groups of men gathered ritually and went out on the hunt, they honored the animal that was killed and brought home to feed the tribe, they asked forgiveness from these animal's 'greater spirit' and was thankful for what this spirit provided the tribe in the way of food.

*FYI: the word daimon in Greek meant spirits and is another word that became demonized.


EM

[EtuMalku]

Can this anicent folklore show in someway that this is the start of modern satanism? And can we then say that satanism indeed is older than the faith in God or Gods?
That would depend on how we are defining Satan.
If this is the Satan from Christianity, then it started with Christianity.

If we define Satan as a Principle of Isolate Intelligence then he has his origin in Egypt with the god Set.

How are we defining Satan?

[devakxes]

This makes me need to re-read the article on serpents from the secret doctrine.

The egyptians viewed this creature as very sacred. The egg represented the Cosmic Egg (universe/world) because the ordered universe was a projection of spirit and mind (the shell is not alive, but the yolk and stuff becomes the snake). The serpent is phallic but more so in the context of Will... The hindus also have a similar view, holding that this reality is a lie.

The serpent hatching from the egg represented the Self-Born, a representation of Amon (?) breaking free from the waters of nuin. Simultaneously, the world exists because of the self.

''In the waters of nuin
at the point of first creation,
I created myself out of desire for myself
thus the world was born.''

Thus the more knowledge one gains the more self-aware you become. Thus the more the world exists.

If you think about this, this is true. The child barely understands itself and thus barely understands the world... living in fantasy worlds that both the child and the parent create. As the child learns more and more about their self, the child realizes the fantasy world created by their self and the parent is not real... and begins to formulate their own views of it. The serpent being the truth... the only reality is Self... more so the inner spark of divinity... reality is what you make it (both literally and metaphorically).

The serpent also is all about it's own survival. It is all about itself and winning. It cares not for others, even those of its' kind. You can care for a snake and feed it its entire life but it will still one day bite you. That is it's nature. So while it has this positive symbolism it also has this ''negative'' beastial nature. ''The brightest light casts the darkest shadow''.

It is reviled by many RHP religions for this reason. The symbolism of the serpent is embedded deep into our collective consciousness. If I had the secret doctrine with me I'd go into more detail on this. It should be in the second volume (anthropogenesis).

I don't agree with all of her views but what she says about this is very relevant.

[devilboy666]

They was a man called Ben Kadosh that was a satanist early 20Th century and the was a coven of satanist in 1940 called Ophite Cultus Satanas