You all know you are?

[LoD]

Ave,

Funny... this would be a subforum where I'd expect a hell of a lot of topics and posts... you ask yourself why I guess?

You see, there is always this focus on either black or white when it comes to the occult, but that is simply foolishness. I find those who say they are white magickians just as foolish as those who claim to be black magickians... since we all use magick for both ends depending on the situation, don't we? I have never met a serious occultist who would turn the other cheek when attacked, they would always retaliate, as defending oneself is of course completely understandable... I am not speaking of the extremes here, there may be those who are totally sick in the head who may only perform darker magick in order to destroy or hurt. These are a minority in the occult community... thankfully.

In a nutshell, I guess most of us are grey, since we utilize our talents not only to help others, but also to gain ourselves (or vice versa when speaking in the context of darker paths)... no?

Blessings,

LoD

[Mingo]

As far as I've understood, the terms "white" and "black" magic originated with the munks studying the old grimoirs back in medival times. "White" magic was anything that could be sanctioned by the Church, "black" magic was everything else. I probably should quote a source, but I can't remember where I read this anymore.

Has anyone else heard of this definition?

[Odin]

Who is to judge really what is white, grey or black magick is and for that matter right or wrong.

Is it not the practicing Magician to protect him self before the day begins so that what ever is thrown at him never gets to them that's what the LBRP and other protection rituals are all about

An eye for and eye attitude, let me get him before he gets me attitude I would " judge " as Black Magick

I think the best offense is the protection ritual and raising the energy as the MP strengthening of the aura to protect ones self as well as healing ones self

As for the breakdown on the of the threads at some point we were beginners and needed to see the difference of each practice of magick by giving it a name which gives it a energy which gives some kind of direction a would be mag can be pointed into a direction to practice

[Odin]

but what if the family members are also practicing and for someone to go after say family members, I say is low down

the problem would say be between you and I, then the problem is between you and I the need to go after family members is not necessary then it turns into some thing of the Hatfields and the McCoy's situation ( I see where you coming from though )

[SWM]

I haven't been in long enough to get attacked, and I have no idea how I would retaliate. Otherwise a mixture of both aspects seem appropriate. Why throw all your eggs into one basket? It seems to me, that investing all of your energy into a crippling attack, or a mind numbing wall, is a waste of time. A wall is good to retreat to if your attack goes south, and a wall to cower behind isn't as satisfying as throwing rocks from above. So to speak.

[Odin]

This is why when you practice your rituals you do them with the clearest intent and desire when performing, not half hearted

Believe me if whether in person of in the astral sense I need to face something there is no better feeling that taking some thing head on not any thing a car, house or someones family member the fight is not with them

If I am not confident that my protection Rituals are at the level that they should be I had better not tick some off

No matter who the person is they needed to be treated with respect their values ideas and the path that they choose to take.

Once you forget this in my eyes the Ego comes it play

please don't jump on me for this but the movie '' The Karate kid " shows what I'm talking about .

just my view and this is why we are individuals

[LoD]

Ave,

Semantics perhaps... or just labeling because we humans love to stick labels on everything? Some very good replies by the way, and, Lady Dunsany, I wasn't referring to this forum at all in my original post... I was just testing the waters so to speak and seeing if this little thought I had would be an appropriate topic for discussion.

Now, let us all try the analyze the differences in approach regardless of intent. How would you describe this when it comes to, oh, let's say asking for something good to happen to you with regards to your career... So, both the 'Black' and the 'White' Magickian perform a ritual to make this happen. The intent is the same, but what is so different in the means to acquire this wish? Is it merely a difference in what ritual is performed and what deities or entities are called forth? Does this difference in methods imply that in the case of the 'Black' Magickian a higher price needs to be paid (such as another human being needs to suffer)? Where does this leave the 'Grey'? Has the 'Grey' found a way of balancing it all so there is no need for sacrifice and no need to feel guilty when the need arises to harm rather than heal?

Or are we merely speaking of differences in personal philosophy, righteousness, world view, conscience, and empathy?

Just thought I'd throw some more questions at you...

Blessings,

LoD

[LoD]

Ave,

I wholeheartedly agree with you Sapiens... and I am also a firm believer in the fact that the Occult is the last place where one should need to discuss morality... ethics, perhaps, but morality?

Blessings,

LoD

[Odin]

Ave,

that the Occult is the last place where one should need to discuss morality... ethics,

LoD

Occultist's shouldn't have or practice morals .. or ethics ?

[SWM]

a rock is a rock is a rock.

[Odin]

are you my teacher lol

[The Cove]

Reading about magical attacks and so on on different forums has drawn me to the conclusion that I have been under attack since the day I was born.

Schopenhauer anyone? Maybe with a side of Vedas for digestion? One could have some Hammurabi for dessert and a sliver of Zen to pick those aphorisms away from Erasmus...

Point being - it may be wise to broaden ones accepted definition of such terms as 'ethics' and 'morality' - in terms of whatever terms you wish to have.

It perturbs me to see the ease of acceptance people take with themselves when they refuse to acknowledge black and white - while all their actions are but a definition and, indeed, a manifestation of the same.

I like earth tones... lol

[Topher]

I see myself as falling into the gray area and that means I take care of me and mine. I don't go out of my way to get anyone's nose out of joint and I try not to make life too unpleasant for the person driving behind me but, I do know that trouble does what it does and sometimes the gloves need to come off from time to time.
That about covers it.
Sorry for the western tone but I've been watching "Firefly" while checking the boards.

[SWM]

which is ironic, because the crew in Firefly are all opportunistically neutral in retrospects to morality :D

[BlackBearMage]

Just to make it clear the reason behind my SN is because I am a black (race) mage. ;)

[LoD]

Ave,


Grey is to me, a person who purely uses magick for his/her own evolvement. An individual, like a hermit. Grey to balance the pendulum by using the negative to draw in the positive and vice versa.

and


We can only work with ethics and morals to the standards that we have learned ourselves, if we hurt somebody because we haven't experienced the receiving end of somebody else's ethics and morals, we can only do our best in order to work for the 'greater good'?

This is brilliant Cascara! You really made clear a most acceptable definition of the term Grey... in my humble opinion ofcourse!

In addition, I agree that the term opportunistically neutral really sums it up in two words nicely.

May I also say that I am quite pleased to see that my initial thought has led to at least some very decent posts in a subforum that, to me at least, has the greatest potential for variety and improvisations/experiences/workings... :)

The knowledge shown by you guys in itself shows massive potential for intelligent debate here.

Blessings,

LoD

[Saeiane]

Grey, White and Black magick are out-dated terms in my opinion (And the general consensus) and don't really exist anymore. To me there is just magick (of course there is Paganism, Wicca, Eclectic Witchcraft, Traditional Witchcraft- but that's not my point)

There are so many paths and ways to harness magick to create change (AKA to preform witchcraft) from simple, focused prayer to complicated ritual high magick. Your personal ethics should be your own. I for one have no moral qualms about defending myself using hostility against a psychic or magickal attack. But I won't outright harm someone for spilling their coffee on me, I might tell them to be more careful next time. I might even get a little angry if they did it carelessly. I also have no moral dilemmas about mind-reading/control though I would not preform this without cause, or good reason. Especially mind control. Which is actually more difficult than reading, the only experiments I've conducted with it so far are movement of arms and legs or suggestion-implant to make someone more inclined towards doing a certain something. And I've practiced it with the subjects informed consent.

Alternatively I find magick for my own goals and gain perfectly acceptable. As long as I am willing to do the same for others. I offer my services to anyone willing to ask for them- just a few days ago a woman came to me who was referenced by a friend of mine (who I taught an extremely helpful cleansing technique) she had spirits in her home, scaring and attacking her (very) young children. This enraged me with a passion. So I took the job to cleanse her home of their presence, and I got the ritual done this passing Saturday, every cleansing before me- they have come back around midnight, or the next day. I have so far not heard from her that they have returned. And if they do I will rid them from her home permanently by whatever means.

So I follow a path that to me, is for the bettering of myself and the people around me. This could be classified as "white" magick, but I do not confine myself to such labels and meanings. I do not think it does any of us justice to confine ourselves.

[The Cove]

In response to comments made by Mr. Vir concerning my response...

Causality itself and the adherence to it as a basis for absolution in all things is often seen in the vegetable kingdom.

I understand your logic and do not disagree with it - how could one? Might makes right? Destroy thy enemy? Tactical first strike? Etc...

It all works terribly well in the end - but it is not what civilization is built upon - might be what protects it - but absolutely not what gives it life - and meaning. Meaning beyond the stark, and black and white world of survival & procreation.

When I consider black & white - I take into consideration it's many correspondences - when you gave a critique of my statement - you applied a correspondence that fit your paradigm.

But, of course, it works terribly well, doesn't it?

[Harlock]

this thread has sparked some interesting questions indeed,

as for my belief on the white black grey "styles" of magick

Ill start off with black because then the rest will make sense, black magick is the effort to change something in some odd matter(distort, transform, shatter, hurt, etc) and to do so without consent of the thing being forced on, and not for its well being like many has said for it to be truly black you must be sadistic, or as the Alfred in the new Batman says "some people just want to see the world burn." this statement sums up the true black magicians or practitioners for me, they really dont care who or what they hurt, as long as it provides amusement

White magick is in the effort to guide, protect, change in a way that keeps its original form just with a little addition to it, or to reshape in other words so that it sets it on its path while giving at least most of the equipment that thing will need....Very much like Lady Galadriel in Lord of the rings (I am trying to find examples that i think that fits, and white was hard) each of her presents came in handy to each of the fellowship, and gave each of them advice

Then there is gray, most practictioners fit under this category, in my opinion, it is to use the forces around you, to bring good will (protection luck, etc), and if nessacary ill will to those that ABTSOLUTLEY need a good smack across the face and no I dont mean just because he got that promotion, or got the girl you were trying to get...I mean he is headed down the wrong path and may fall under the line as black so he needs a "wake up call" if u will and in the end that person will grow from that experiance an return to his former self. (gandalf-ish? batman? oh heck someone who has to do something only by nessecity not out of want)

To me grey represents life, you give and you take, you are rewarded and you are punished, I guess a quick definition of grey is to use both sides in the effort to have them work together as a cohesive unit, to bring harmony to the balance, and the majority of the mass, not the few

[Shades]

To me grey represents life, you give and you take, you are rewarded and you are punished, I guess a quick definition of grey is to use both sides in the effort to have them work together as a cohesive unit, to bring harmony to the balance, and the majority of the mass, not the few


I like that.

[Harlock]

what i mean by balance isnt about the balance between the two sides of magic but more about the balance between everything, in the largest term of "the balance" the heavens, and the ordinary individual against the spirits and people who wish to destroy, but thats going on a very grand level and goes into another ethical arguement, there will always be "conflicting" forces out there, no one can deny that, but if there isnt a happy medium things begin to fall apart. sort of like how if you actually mess around with "dark" magick for too long it begins to effect you, and your personality, if you arent careful same happens with the "light" just in a different way and take longer, so a balance is needed to control and diminish these effects

[Markus]

I don't believe in the colors of magick, it all depends on the intent of the Mage.

Simple as that.

[chronazon]

I wonder if the ray teachings of dion fortune should have any subforums. I think there is a ray for every planet too so maybe like green witchcraft/earth magic should have a section but maybe the herbal section is enough.
I know red magick is destructive and related to mars, passion, and the people, like a king's magical system, but stuff just nasty disgusting with power. probably why purple is the color of royalty... blue reminds me of high ceremonial magick, or hermetics, and systems of advanced knowledge. Orange is the color of biology, I know so maybe many natropathic medical practices are actually orange magick, and is healing then not just a white thing but connected to the orange ray? is the orange ray also culinary related?
any thoughts as to yellow? yellow is the color of leaves dying, maybe the science of reincarnation has something to do with it since the tree survives.
I don't know much about the ray teachings but those are my thoughts, still from what I remember and can surmise.

[ZeldaFitz]

Ave,

Funny... this would be a subforum where I'd expect a hell of a lot of topics and posts... you ask yourself why I guess?

You see, there is always this focus on either black or white when it comes to the occult, but that is simply foolishness. I find those who say they are white magickians just as foolish as those who claim to be black magickians... since we all use magick for both ends depending on the situation, don't we? I have never met a serious occultist who would turn the other cheek when attacked, they would always retaliate, as defending oneself is of course completely understandable... I am not speaking of the extremes here, there may be those who are totally sick in the head who may only perform darker magick in order to destroy or hurt. These are a minority in the occult community... thankfully.

In a nutshell, I guess most of us are grey, since we utilize our talents not only to help others, but also to gain ourselves (or vice versa when speaking in the context of darker paths)... no?

Blessings,

LoD

I have known who I am since I was born. What's the problem?

[zero]

Grey is but a mesh of black an white in terminology. but Grey still thinks black and white, when the soul is as clear as a diamond there is no distinction, attack and there will be no effect, but the passing through to dispersion.

it is my opinion that there is only magic, the way you use it is your business, and the tags you give in that use is also; your business. The current makes no distinction. We are on the entrails of morals, and like opinions, there will always be differences, for the point of view can never be replicated completely. What is today immoral may tomorrow be moral. look at some of our old knowledge and laws, these are all aspects of truth of there times and needs.

as for laws of nature such as three fold; I believe more in the ripple effect if it is far enough those ripples dissipate, but if it is to close you may get wet. This is a natural law but shows a point of reaction, which is a universal law. the beauty of progress in science is the defining of the ways of magic.

[tavthe]

I see myself as grey. I dont perceive black magic or white magic through the lens of religion or morality. I dont link it to chaos and order or light and darkness. Too much of anything can skew your perspective. Practitioners of white allow themselves to live under too many restrictions. But I appreciate the incentive and experimental spirit of black magicians. To agree with some others, its all magic. It all fades to grey.

[Astral Eye]

I see myself as grey, allthough I sometimes call others "black" or "white" to help understand their choices e.g.: I have to many people where I live that choose to harm others reguarly for no good reason. You may see why I reffer to them as Black practicioners to others.

[tavthe]

Astral, I get your point. I was talking about folks who don't harm others purposefully: that is, those who dont deserve it and still get labelled and villified by those who don't understand them.

[Astral Eye]

Yes, in that sense the label is stupid. Magick is like a tool, wether we use it for "good" or"evil" is up to us.