Hypothetical Situation

[Euclestia]

What if an Angel or Demon got trapped in a person's body for a significant amount of time? Let's say 10 years. The owner of the body is gone and there is just the entity left, pretty much left to do whatever. The entity is rendered powerless however in a body, so it is not able to leave on its own. How would you release it? Would the body have to die to release it? Also what would you do in a situation like this if you happened upon it?

Of course this is theory based. So anything is welcome. Thanks.

[Dajai]

What if an Angel or Demon got trapped in a person's body for a significant amount of time? Let's say 10 years. The owner of the body is gone and there is just the entity left, pretty much left to do whatever. The entity is rendered powerless however in a body, so it is not able to leave on its own. How would you release it? Would the body have to die to release it? Also what would you do in a situation like this if you happened upon it?

Of course this is theory based. So anything is welcome. Thanks.

Based on these circumstances, as you describe them, I would attempt to make a deal with the entity before I even consider releasing it.

[Dajai]

releasing what? have we all gone mad?

I presume the OP is referring to releasing the angel or demon, based on the hypothetical question. The OP wasn't asking for possibilities based on any other reality than that which the question supposed.

Unless it was a rather clumsy way of asking for an answer like you have already provided. Though it read more like a personality test to me.

[Euclestia]

It is more of a personality question. I know that it is not possible, I was simply wondering peoples methods of doing things. Testing the waters to know members responses so I can see which I identify most to, if that makes sense.

Although I am under the assumption that spirits can enter bodies for moments and I have witnessed and experienced it. I think of angels and demons as just regular spirits with different characteristics.

Sorry if I was a bit vague with the situation.

[Dajai]

It is more of a personality question. I know that it is not possible, I was simply wondering peoples methods of doing things. Testing the waters to know members responses so I can see which I identify most to, if that makes sense.

Although I am under the assumption that spirits can enter bodies for moments and I have witnessed and experienced it. I think of angels and demons as just regular spirits with different characteristics.

Sorry if I was a bit vague with the situation.

Makes sense. And Iza's point raises another interesting question.

If maybe a spirit can be trapped within a body if it is covered in the correct sigils - much as any vessel in which one might trap spirits; such as with Solomon's brass vessel.

[PlagueJester]

there is no such thing as a demon possessing a body or being trapped. they will latch on but can not enter, and the demons are usually of the ID, and are not the physical. i sometimes wonder where people get these notions.

No attempt to cut my own throat by disagreeing with an admin, but I feel that this is an unfair assumption.

I mean, this is a site for multiple religious POVs. Catholics believe firmly in the ability of a demon to physically possess someone. Catholicism is a legitimate religion. Of course, you won't find very many Catholics on an Occult forum (except for perhaps a fourteen year old troll trying to save us all), but as it's a legitimate religion and it has that belief, I feel that's a belief that should not be scoffed at because it's different.

Hell, I know we have Wiccans on this site and I could write pages and pages against that.

Don't hurt me, just wanted to get that thought out.

[Ahrazura]

Dajai,
Good point, I was wondering when a fellow forumite would bring Solomon into the mix. I wear a silver ring on my left hand for the control of Daemons. I find a lot of Goetic influence makes sense when dealing with demonic and angelic entities.

All,
I wonder how the claim is viewed by the extant list that demons do not enter the human vessel when clearly there is enough examples, theory or personal experiences that offer a juxtaposed point of opinion.

just a few,
1) Jesus was confronted by his disciples who claimed that there was a man casting 'out' demons. in Jesus's name The question is if they where being cast out then should we assume that they were 'inside' ?

2) Ishtar went into the underworld (chthonic realm) to speak with her sister. It is seen by many that this realm she entered was her own inner realm. For her to then be able to speak and meet her sister (possibly her inner daemon) we must assume that yet another demonic aspect is within the body.

3) It is not only the Catholic church that sanctions exorcism, if the demon is not within then why bother with chucking it out.

4) Many recension's make mention of the ritual of wedding with the inner daemon. By inner I assume that this entity is within and not without.

5) Further speculation vis' the Egyptian jed (spine) and the Hebraic tree of life should make us think of the daemon within. If the tree is but a metaphor for the spine (Egyptian jed) then one must assume that the primal demon spake unto our primal parents from within.

6) I believe that Azura/ Choronzon are demonic keepers of the gate. If this is so then the question is where is the gate ?. If like me, and many,many others, you see the gate as part of our inner and deepest psyche then demons must by virtue have a place within our self as well as outside. Even the triangle of manifestation is but a screen by which to allow us to view that which is within.

7) if the One True God is the sum of cosmic consiousness then the cosmos must be the body of the One True God. Was not Azazel evicted from the body of the One True God ? If this may be seen as possible then the axiom of 'as above, so bellow' yet again must be thought about. If man may be viewed as a microcosmic aspect of the One True God then we are also able to have within us that which is able to be expelled from within.

I do not deny any their views regarding this but I feel that to say that demons do not reside within us is a thing of nowt without indicating why such a finite statement has been laid before this list.

Regards,
Ahrazura

[PlagueJester]

Very good points, Ahrazura! Thanks for posting :) Even though I own the Goetia, I haven't dug through it fully enough to know whether or not the demons in it could enter a body.

[shatteredpan]

In that situation, basing it off what i think I know, I personally think the demon/angel could be exorcised. However, would you really want too? If the person is gone for good, all that's left will be a shell...

And I do believe that once the body perished, the entity would be freed.

As for what I would do, that depends on the nature of the entity, and the situation. The entity is trapped, but is it unhappy? Is it a destructive entity? How well/how close am I too this person? etc.

If I did decide to release it, I would probably use Goetic tecniques (sp), and command it out. But I'm still a newbie, so I should probably stop talking about that before I say something idiotic lol

[Dajai]

Dajai,
Good point, I was wondering when a fellow forumite would bring Solomon into the mix. I wear a silver ring on my left hand for the control of Daemons. I find a lot of Goetic influence makes sense when dealing with demonic and angelic entities.

All,
I wonder how the claim is viewed by the extant list that demons do not enter the human vessel when clearly there is enough examples, theory or personal experiences that offer a juxtaposed point of opinion.

just a few,
1) Jesus was confronted by his disciples who claimed that there was a man casting 'out' demons. in Jesus's name The question is if they where being cast out then should we assume that they were 'inside' ?

2) Ishtar went into the underworld (chthonic realm) to speak with her sister. It is seen by many that this realm she entered was her own inner realm. For her to then be able to speak and meet her sister (possibly her inner daemon) we must assume that yet another demonic aspect is within the body.

3) It is not only the Catholic church that sanctions exorcism, if the demon is not within then why bother with chucking it out.

4) Many recension's make mention of the ritual of wedding with the inner daemon. By inner I assume that this entity is within and not without.

5) Further speculation vis' the Egyptian jed (spine) and the Hebraic tree of life should make us think of the daemon within. If the tree is but a metaphor for the spine (Egyptian jed) then one must assume that the primal demon spake unto our primal parents from within.

6) I believe that Azura/ Choronzon are demonic keepers of the gate. If this is so then the question is where is the gate ?. If like me, and many,many others, you see the gate as part of our inner and deepest psyche then demons must by virtue have a place within our self as well as outside. Even the triangle of manifestation is but a screen by which to allow us to view that which is within.

7) if the One True God is the sum of cosmic consiousness then the cosmos must be the body of the One True God. Was not Azazel evicted from the body of the One True God ? If this may be seen as possible then the axiom of 'as above, so bellow' yet again must be thought about. If man may be viewed as a microcosmic aspect of the One True God then we are also able to have within us that which is able to be expelled from within.

I do not deny any their views regarding this but I feel that to say that demons do not reside within us is a thing of nowt without indicating why such a finite statement has been laid before this list.

Regards,
Ahrazura

Some excellent points there, Ahrazura.

There are occultists who equate Goetic demons to Jungian archetypes and Crowley seemed to indicate a similar understanding within the fore-notes to the Goetia - being that change within the self can be viewed as the origin of magickal change. This would certainly support demonic entities as being necessary components of the psyche.

This perspective would beg the question, "Why need to release?" or "Would such remain?" Collectively, maybe. Now we're crossing over to more necromantic thought: Maybe that, communication with the 'dead' is a vital component for some individuals; that is - The only way such people can get in touch with these parts of their own psyche is through association with a deep and primal, external connection to a dead object. Object; as in the psychodynamic definition of such.

From this I would conclude that the reality of the conundrum has to be based on individual psychology rather than one blanket answer. It may seem logical but I think this gives a little more reason to arrive at such a position - which seems to be one of the first principals of many occult doctrines: There is no truth.

Another way of contemplating this might involve looking at the etymology of the word "demon" - which links to principals of "genius" and therefore to thought.

These factors tie in with my personal understanding; that demons might be used to convey thought . . and indeed, that I could be employing such now in order that I might be understood in some way. That it was by the beacon I lit in mentioning Solomon's Brass Vessel which sparked such insightful reactionary notions from Ahrazura.

Wonderful, thought provoking topic, Euclestia.:)

[Ahrazura]

Dajai,
From your response you show your true hand lol. With that in mind I wonder if you and the current list would also like to delve into how I see Levi's sigil of Baphomet relating to the inner daemon ? The Goetia is all well and good but I find Levi's sigil to be almost the panacea of all magickal woes and problems. almost a case of Physician heal thyself !!

If you are interested then I shall continue,

Ahrazura

[Dajai]

Dajai,
From your response you show your true hand lol. With that in mind I wonder if you and the current list would also like to delve into how I see Levi's sigil of Baphomet relating to the inner daemon ? The Goetia is all well and good but I find Levi's sigil to be almost the panacea of all magickal woes and problems. almost a case of Physician heal thyself !!

If you are interested then I shall continue,

Ahrazura

Indeed, one of my hands - the open one.

I keep meaning to read more of Levi's work and would be delighted to read of your views here - as I am sure others would also. I'm hungry for working knowledge.

[Ahrazura]

OK, here we go !

Baphomet sits on a sphere that has his name upon it. To me this says that the sphere is a world, his world. In that moment that Baphomet sits upon the globe it becomes a throne, this being the seat of ruling. I see this as identifying the 1st aspect of the sigil as an instruction to gain mastery of that world you allow to encroach upon you. Yet the sigil is also a set of instructions as to how to get the ball rolling. Baphomet is known as the Master of the Sabbat and also the Black Man of the sabbat. As we look up to the lap of Baphomet we see a half circle and what looks like a caduceus. These symbols speak to me of communication to and from the gods., not forgetting that the caduceus was the symbol of Hermes the messenger of the gods. If we take the half circle as the heavens that we can see from our own point of perspective then we must think of the sphere of fixed stars. The central rod pierces the center of the arch and in that moment it becomes an Axis Mundi, a direct link between the Empyrean Nowl Star or the Nail that never cools and Earthly realms. The central pole also doubles as a phallic symbol but that works later into the overview. At each side of what is clearly the sexual area are two serpents. They are perfectly mirrored and as such they must be opposites. A little thought on this and one might arrive at the opinion that this now becomes an instruction. I see this as an instruction to balance both sides of one's sexual psyche. This is a well known practice undertaken by many within the magickal world. I don't know about you but I tend to see Baphomet as male, but if we look up we see breasts. This is again a sign of opposites but also an instruction to be balanced in your sexual spheres.
Remember that this is about why I see daemons as being within.
From my teachers I came to know Baphomet-Cain as the Hidden Mentor and even my/the Holy Guardian Angel. I then think , while viewing the sigil, what is the purpose of balancing the sexual spheres if there is no reason thereafter. It must follow that the sigil is now opening the way via another set of instructions. On the left of the sigil Baphomet is raising his hand toward a white moon. The moon is thus lit from the light of the sun while the sun is behind the Earth. This would make it night time from our perspective. The night time is the best time to get into that dream state and if I remember correctly circa 3 AM is the optimum time, so definitely night. Another term used for going within is dark side or night side.
So thus far I read it as an instruction to be completely balanced to begin your journey within. A look at the arm which points to the moon will show us the Latin word SOLVE which translates to dissolve, I would guess that would mean inside (from how I read it, others may differ). On the other side of the sigil the moon's face is in shadow thus the sun is behind the moon and shining light on our hemisphere, ergo it is daytime for us. The Egyptians gave subtle clues that the night belonged to spirits and the day to the living inasmuch as their ritual of 'Going forth by day' shows us.
So we have a sign for night (shadow side) and a sign for day (waking world). This must lead one to think of the alchemical axiom 'As above, so below'. Another version of that which is often used is 'As within, so without', perhaps better used here for my offering.
Now if one draws a straight line from palm to palm the line cuts right through the heart. Could this be a clue that this is the heart of the mater ?
Now if we look up further, higher up than the obvious pentacle we find the light between the horns. I would not be surprised if that came from the certain Bedouin tribe that first used it as an icon representing their deceased 'leader', and I would hope teacher. The Bedouin tribe would also be indicative of the crooked path that all pilgrims take but again I am drawn to think of the Leader aspect of the icon. In the case of the Baphomet sigil I see the light/ flame as being that again of the leader in the revelries of the sabbat.
So At this point I read the sigil as instructing us to dissolve inward and be lead to discover the mysteries ! but what does it say on the arm pointing to the day side ?
This says in Latin 'Coagular' which translates to 'Come together' or come back.
Now if we keep the As above, so below axiom in mind we can see a promissory result being offered. To me it clearly says that what changes you make within the inner dark side realm will be made flesh in the mundane day side.
So what is this sigil ?
I see it as instruction, an introduction to Deity, a map and a promise.

Dajai,
I am guessing that this would be old hat to you but it may be of interest in general .

Best wishes,
Ahrazura

[Dajai]

Dajai,
I am guessing that this would be old hat to you but it may be of interest in general .

Best wishes,
Ahrazura

Still refreshing to read and well studied.

"Solve et coagula" also being alchemical in origin, of course. That creation and destruction are to be contemplated as of the same force or origin; as with Abraxas. Destruction will create and creation will destroy; bringing the message of change, as concealed within the pentagram upon the brow of the Horned God; located between his crown and third eye.

This alchemical formula is further exemplified by the two serpents; which brings to mind a myth which conveys lore; whereby the killing of one snake calls another, bearing healing herbs in its mouth.

Certainly, the image seems to promote balance in duality. The Horned One also grants a sense of serenity and ascension. Not forgetting to note the wings - be they a mental attribute or a reality.

An additional point of note to muse over is that hand mudra. Whilst the meaning currently escapes me, I became aware that this is something I unconsciously use to ward people away from me - and that it works exceptionally well - with palm facing the target direction.

[Ahrazura]

Dajai,
Thank you for your considerations, well noted on my part.
This just goes to show the myriad of potential hidden instructions/ messages that lay within a presented sigil.

May I ask if your good self had chance to correspond with a neophyte who used the forum name of Bran ?


By ancient bone & sacred sign,
Ahrazura

[Ahrazura]

Dajai,
I do indeed relate to the alchemical inferance of 'Solve et coagula', or as a very good magickal friend calls it 'Cosmos from chaos'.

Best wishes,
Ahrazura

[Ahrazura]

Dajai,
I do indeed thank you for the Abraxas food for thought. In a quick review of my notes and I wonder if you view Abraxas as the self same being as 'The Bornless One'

Yet more best wishes,
Ahrazura

[Dajai]

Dajai,
Thank you for your considerations, well noted on my part.
This just goes to show the myriad of potential hidden instructions/ messages that lay within a presented sigil.

May I ask if your good self had chance to correspond with a neophyte who used the forum name of Bran ?


By ancient bone & sacred sign,
Ahrazura

The name isn't ringing any bells. May I ask as to why it is that you expect me to have met Bran here?




Dajai,
I do indeed thank you for the Abraxas food for thought. In a quick review of my notes and I wonder if you view Abraxas as the self same being as 'The Bornless One'

Yet more best wishes,
Ahrazura

It's difficult to say. On the one hand, a call is made to him as Abrasax when invocation of the Bornless One is performed and yet no man has seen the Bornless One; which contradicts very clear visions of Abraxas.

In all honesty, it's not something that I have contemplated deeply before. I would have to perform specific research before reaching a more definitive conclusion.

From my current understanding, however, these acknowledgements would be similar to a psychonaut taking various specific substances to fine tune an experience or a sound engineer selecting certain compressors for different elements in a mix; Abrasax/Abraxas as representing one drug or compressor.

Now, it could be that, through this, Crowley was changing the filter in some way. Modifying it so that only specific elements of Abraxas are filtered through, making such power more manageable or compatible with the other forces called upon in order to enter this state of being.

We really have gone OT here, haven't we. :D

EDIT: Knowing Crowley, it was probably something that needed editing in order for it to work properly.

[Ahrazura]

Dajai,
I was fortunate (as Bran) to be noticed when I was a much younger man by a fellow from the erudite class. He introduced me to people on an invitation only forum full of 'real' Adepts that follow a Titan and possibly a sphinx !!. I loved the way they conversed with the correct etiquette and as such I try and emulate that in my own posts, to me it becomes an obligation when interacting in worthy debate with 'proper people'
I felt a great sadness and loss when the much respected Magister passed over last year and as is such with the way, the circle of Adepts withdrew from them that were not close enough to the Magister. I had been in Spain for a couple of years and lost that connection as it was before I left. It was because of this group that my understanding took off and the spark was truly kindled
You write and present information, hidden or other, in that same style and I did hope you was or knew one of our old group. I had to leave Spain in a hurry and left all my bloody contact information for my friends in my apartment there. I have met with one since returning but even he has said that when they are ready they will be in touch with the old group. GOD how I miss going that deep with topics of the Arte Magickal.

Best wishes,
Ahrazura

[Dajai]

Ahrazura,

I am sorry to hear of your loss. Sounds like your experience had a very positive and profound effect on you. Also something that I have, thus far, chosen to miss out on. Nowadays I would be more interested in joining an order, so I thought it best to look around various forums.

Actually, it was by accident that I signed up here - as I used to be a member of OccultForum.org - and only discovered my error recently. When I first signed up here I wondered where all the old members had gone!

Still. We rarely do anything unconsciously by accident so I feel it prudent to remain, at least for a while.

Indeed, it has been a pleasure discussing these matters with you. Hopefully we will both find groups of use and interest in the future.

[krimson]

This is something that actually can and does happen, and it is not always with angel or demon entities. It is known as the 'Walk In' occurance or 'Soul Exchange', and the new soul that takes the place of the original soul is known as the 'Walk In.' There are many people who feel that they are walk-in souls. And yes, when the body is dead, then the soul is released.

Some further info: Past Forward: Walk-Ins- Soul Exchange: (Spiritual - Adult Walk-Ins) (http://www.healpastlives.com/pastlf/karmdict/kdsxchng.htm#Symptoms)

[seekerofprophecies]

Thats really interesting, I think this may have occured to me, to be honest I don't really know.

[Euclestia]

Thank you krimson for the link. I believe it can happen with just spirits in general.

Thanks for all the responses and sorry for not being here to really respond so I'm all late haha.

[devakxes]

The only kind of possession that is possible is similar to the concept of a person having a passenger in their car. They aren't the driver but they can on occasion, take control of the wheel or whisper into the mind of the person driving.

A supreme invocation allows such entities to take over entirely - that is a conscious choice though and eventually the consciousness of the person will come back. The only way an entity could COMPLETELY take control of someone like this - is if the person never had a consciousness at all. In this case, you'd have to be born without it... or have lost yourself to the cosmic inertia.

So the entity in this case would have to remember how they got into the being to begin with, wouldn't they?

And it is always possible to remember... even if lost in the depths of the sub-conscious... the right moment, at the right time, for someone of true consciousness will produce the insight they are seeking.

Unless of course, said entity forgot who it was - which may happen as it does in incarnation to someone who is otherkin or possibly of a higher consciousness. This can be compared to the movie ''Avatar'' when the main character went into the avatar and started interacting with them as if he was one of them, instead of ACTING like he was one of them.

[abyss_mystic]

Could it be possible to co-habit a body with an entity of some type in a sort of symbiotic relationship rather than flat out over-shadowing or possesion?

[devakxes]

Could it be possible to co-habit a body with an entity of some type in a sort of symbiotic relationship rather than flat out over-shadowing or possesion?

Becoming blood bound to an entity makes this happen.

Sometimes there are ''possessions'' which are more like the standard ''oppression'' where an entity attaches itself to another's chakras and aura (particularly the solar plexus and throat).

[Daisy]

What if an Angel or Demon got trapped in a person's body for a significant amount of time? Let's say 10 years. The owner of the body is gone and there is just the entity left, pretty much left to do whatever. The entity is rendered powerless however in a body, so it is not able to leave on its own. How would you release it? Would the body have to die to release it? Also what would you do in a situation like this if you happened upon it?

Of course this is theory based. So anything is welcome. Thanks.

Anything's possible sort of question, yes?

It has a lot of variables. Did this person come up to me and say, hey, I'm trapped and want out, or did I just notice it?

Despite my years and experience (note: not years OF, just years and) I still end up in a spiritual crisis of sorts when I start to try to break down soul, spirit, egregore, archon, etc etc etc as to what is what and who is who. Many traditions and belief sets have wildly varying opinions, and sometimes I'm not even sure if my own stay constant from time to time.

I'm generally though of the ilk that all has "spirit". This includes person, place, and thing... generally - if it is a noun, it has spirit/a spirit (including the concept of, say, the spirit of Justice or Mercy).

Then I start to wobble again. Someone else used the car and driver analogy and I've also used that for years to describe the body versus 'the soul'. But then as I said I start to wobble because - the car has spirit, and the driver, also, has spirit. (Typing this out painfully slowly as I try to explain this).

Then I transition a little more smoothly into the whole circular astral vibrational level system.

By this point, I give up and read a bottle of Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Soap. (All One! All One!) Basically, the concept of unity, even with all the divisions, and that unity, I guess if anything, is underlying Spirit.

So to me, how a situation like this could have happened eludes me. See; some belief systems say it is impossible, others say likely to possible, all dependent on their vision of 'what is spirit' 'what is soul' 'what is angelic/demonic' etc.

And when it comes to angels and demons, though a christian upbringing in my youth colors things, I have to admit that with the tiny amount of reading I've done on kabbalistic angels/demons, that may click with me the best (where an angel is 'in balance' and the corresponding demonic is 'out of balance' - someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'd like to know more.)

So a demon trapped in a human body for 10 years may simply have a penchant for drink, a bad temper, and watches too much porn. I now suspect at least one person in my apartment building as being the object of this thought exersize.

So, say it wants to get 'out', wherever out is to. At first glance, in the shamanic tradition, I'm not sure if it would be possible. The body is 'ensouled' - not with its proper soul, but with something - and through shamans 'cast out' demons from people in the process of healing, they are casting them out of the physical body but OFF of the spiritual one (such as riders or other negative entites attached to auric fields - its all a matter of sematics really).

So, any travel to this individual in the middle realm would simply lead to encountering the resident of the vessel - the Angel/Demon, and as the example says, no one else. No luck there, at least for me.

Now to drift to my more eclectic knowhow.

I'd assume since it can't leave, its bound by an Astral cord. The first question would be, well, why? The cord should have been attached to the original resident, and had broken when the original soul left, leaving basically an animated living corpse, for lack of a better term, that the Angel/Demon should be able to abandon and re-indwell at any time.

I suppose at this point I'd be eyeing that cord like someone would eye the pair of obviously police-issue handcuffs on someone they met on the street who's asking you to take them off please. (won't help if theyre out of breath and their eyes are darting around as they ask either.)

Am I taking this too far? I guess the point is - if they can't leave AND they're a freaking ANGELIC (consider this to mean angelic/demonic)... who made that happen?

And do I really want to piss that thing off by helping it get out? I mean, I'm sure if it were desperate enough it would commit suicide - the same laws wouldn't apply to something that possessed and got stuck than a soul that was born in the natural order to fulfill a goal -- unless it TOO had a goal to fulfill. ;)

I'm afraid I'd probably offer it a cup of tea (or a beer ;) ) apologize, and send it on it's way. I would never be an agent of assisted suicide for a person. I damn well won't do it for an Angel - not even of the fallen variety.

Besides, I'd get arrested for murder by exorcism. ;)

[devakxes]

'm generally though of the ilk that all has "spirit". This includes person, place, and thing... generally - if it is a noun, it has spirit/a spirit (including the concept of, say, the spirit of Justice or Mercy).

Then I start to wobble again. Someone else used the car and driver analogy and I've also used that for years to describe the body versus 'the soul'. But then as I said I start to wobble because - the car has spirit, and the driver, also, has spirit. (Typing this out painfully slowly as I try to explain this).

I agree. I think the consciousness of the body is the sub-conscious. The sub-conscious can't think in abstract thought, just like animals. The consciousness of animals and humans have minimal skills in mental ability much akin to that of children.

[Daisy]

I agree. I think the consciousness of the body is the sub-conscious. The sub-conscious can't think in abstract thought, just like animals. The consciousness of animals and humans have minimal skills in mental ability much akin to that of children.

I guess for me it begins to get confused when I think about a friend of mine - I'd say a step beyond children (at least, to adults ;)), but this could just be a matter of our own definitions and how we mean things.

When I was in my late 20's a friend of mine contacts me and tells me he has cancer. Well, he goes into it a little deeper than that, listing exact type and grade.

It was something like: "I had a seisure at work, and they found a grade three anaplastic astrocytoma in my brain."

At the time I worked in cancer research, so basically he has just told me, "I just found out I am going to die." Any possible miracles aside, no one gets better from these things.

So they had done surgery and taken a HUGE part of his brain out. I mean, huge, plus this astrocytoma. This is an attempt to get 'clean margins' - ie leave as little of the tumor there as possible. But due to type, this is liike trying to pull away and entire tangle of spider-web with one pull of your hand. There will still be edges, sitting around - brain cells after all.

These they tried to kill with chemotherapy and radiation, but there was also a section too close to his optical cortex they couldn't touch.

So I saw him after the surgery - and it was still him. 100% him. It was just a guy, knowing he was going to die. (Saddest part was - we're at a convention and he didn't want to go to them alone anymore, afraid the maid would come in and find him dead, etc. So there's me, good person I am, no no, I'll stay in the room with you, don't worry. Who wakes up screaming with the night terrors and ends up being calmed by the other one? ME. One of those sort of embarrassing things. Could blame 'empathy' all ya want - truth is I was more afraid to die at that point, I think, than he was.)

It was in the convention off-season a friend and I get a call that he's back in the hospital and has taken a turn for the worse, so friend drives me there.

And I walk in the room and, ok. No creepy visualisations or anything like that. But the sick friend... wasn't there. He wasn't IN his body anymore. Okm thinking about it now (as I post at 3am, msn messenger woke from a tucky dream so I took the escape-line out it gave me) there should have been an astral cord somewhere to follow some 'rule' that there needs to be one (I'm pretty sure there does), but regardless, no one was home.

The car had broken down.

Well, my friend greeted me, half empty-eyed (for lack of a better term), saw my neck, looks horrified (cause I'm in a neck brace I had just has surgery on my spine myself). Oohh, what happened? Are you alright? Now, before he had known I was going into surgery, but the tumor was devouring what was left of his brain. He was beginning to forget. I explain I was in surgery, but I'm fine now. Oh, well I'm in the hospital too. He laughs. He looks up at this picture in front of his bed of a river-side, one of those generic paintings they stick in hospital rooms, and appears to be concentrating. The people in the room at this point explain that my friend and I need to witness for his will.

"I don't like this picture", he says after a moment.

Then after a moment of him having some eyelid fluttering woozyness, the conversation repeats itself, but I get to hear the parts I had missed before in his last lucid moments.

Yes, you're in the hospital. Yes, I'm here, your mom's here, your girlfriend is here. You have cancer, do you remember? It's progressing and you're not doing well. You're going to likely die. Look. Your friends are here to witness your will.

Then I'm stuck in groundhog day all over again.

He lived a few more months after that, quite happily. One of those 'died after Christmas' thoughtful deaths. I was glad though that I said said goodbye to him long before this point. Because at this point, for all intents and purposes save transferring the title of that car to 'whence it came', he was done.

I guess my point is -- I think a body that is 'soul-less' can function quite well (as long as there is a way for it to stay alive. Owned but not currently occupied sort of deal) in the same way a non-magical person can curse someone quite adeptly. And I mean beyond just simple basic functions such as breathing/digesting/etc.

I'm reminded of what gets referred to as Dark Nights of the Soul or spiritual crisis where it feels like you're empty, powerless, 'not there' etc.

Heh. Maybe that's the whole point when people use the terminology that you feel that way because you're 'searching inside yourself' - if you don't associate 'yourself' with this body you occupy. Searching inside yourself.. somewhere else. Leaving the ego-concious you feeling empty. (Notice how dreams, though they may not be happy or any one theme at times like these, are the time you feel 'normal'?)

It's a shame. All of this is a bigger tangled mess than a lot of people want to think about for sake of ease - hell I think I confused myself again :).

[Dusted Agore]

there is no such thing as a demon possessing a body or being trapped. they will latch on but can not enter, and the demons are usually of the ID, and are not the physical. i sometimes wonder where people get these notions.


releasing what? have we all gone mad?


Blah, Blah, Blah.

Iza what wrong? every one is entitled to their own beliefs and this is a occult forum so why even post that.

i wonder where you get your notions?
If you know everything thing there is to know about everything then please enlighten us all, i am sure we could all use the extra free time from never having to study and experiment again.

look all i am saying is be a bit more open minded and lay off people. :)