On the Subject of making Pacts

[chestermccoy]

Looking though occultforums' archives, I have seen that rather often members make vague forums about the subject of pacts with demons and soul selling of one variety or another. None of these answers the questions I have, and perhaps you will. I wish to know about the formalities one must observe when making pacts, such as how to speak with the demon/angel, what customs to observe, the necessity of protection if free will is still intact, ect. Another very important matter is the actual negotiation itself. What could be offered to a demon, and what value is attached to it. For example, how valued would an offering of wine be? of animal blood? Basically, how would the negotiation go, from beginning to end. I, myself, am a long time practitioner of witchcraft, but have no experience (beyond book learning) of Ceremonial Magick. I do not want to proceed into something often described as lethal without a guidelines.

[Dajai]

So many variables to address there.

Why would you want to sell your soul anyway - and to whom?

Another point that I would like to address is whether you are viewing demons and angels as polar opposites - as your post appears to indicate. This surprises me, especially with regard to your nod towards witchcraft. Whilst I wouldn't expect a witch to have worked with angels I would certainly expect a level of knowledge pertaining to demonology.

[chestermccoy]

Dajai,
I actually wasn't speaking of selling my soul, I've no desire to go and do that. I was more looking towards other things which could be bargained for instead. And, I am knowledgeable in that I have read all the classic grimoires. As far as hands-on experience goes, I have none. To be frank the idea of attempting to compel something as powerful as a demon, at my current level of practice, seems absurd. I was merely wondering how I could negotiate with one.

[Seyk]

Dajai,
I actually wasn't speaking of selling my soul, I've no desire to go and do that. I was more looking towards other things which could be bargained for instead. And, I am knowledgeable in that I have read all the classic grimoires. As far as hands-on experience goes, I have none. To be frank the idea of attempting to compel something as powerful as a demon, at my current level of practice, seems absurd. I was merely wondering how I could negotiate with one.

As far as I know, which may not be true, instead of your soul you can offer a favor, or perform a task asked by the demon.

[chestermccoy]

As far as I know, which may not be true, instead of your soul you can offer a favor, or perform a task asked by the demon.

Really? Interesting..... makes a great deal of sense, I often trade in favors. do you recall where you got this information?

[devakxes]

This isn't where you ''get this information.''
It is just an option. Certain entities may enjoy animal blood while others may enjoy libations of wine a lot more than animal blood - use your intuition and study the entity. If the being is aggressive than it will probably like animal blood or something that fits its' nature (or possibly even the opposite of its' nature, in some cases). The only thing you don't want to do is offer blood. Blood is sacred. It will bind the being to your energy and make it so they can influence your life, but it will also grant you power and access to the energy of that being. It is very difficult to remove such bindings though. You would need a being greater than yourself or a full blood transfusion/death to remove it.

Sangomancy is something that is experimental and pretty much impossible to find information on. It exists though.

[Dajai]

Dajai,
I actually wasn't speaking of selling my soul, I've no desire to go and do that. I was more looking towards other things which could be bargained for instead. And, I am knowledgeable in that I have read all the classic grimoires. As far as hands-on experience goes, I have none. To be frank the idea of attempting to compel something as powerful as a demon, at my current level of practice, seems absurd. I was merely wondering how I could negotiate with one.

If you have been practising armchair occultism for while it can be very exciting to put that knowledge to use. I'm sure we all go through this phase where reading becomes more seductive than practice or that practice is difficult at various life stages.

Many of the classic grimoires detail precisely the manner in which to approach demons; though these techniques do vary. Variables that apply here are: Mythos or belief system; The author; The demons themselves.

If your interest is born of curiosity then you might be better playing with a demon of such nature. However, I would research protection extensively if you are to work with such magicks.

If your interest is of a more focussed nature it is as simple as contemplating the result and finding a demon that will best assist. It's like finding potential investors in a project; you need a approach those who will best understand the project and hold relevant experience.

Depending on the demon you choose to approach, different methods will apply. Equally, depending on your own being, different methods will apply.

From my own perspective; I do not barter and consider myself in a more advantageous position than any demon. By all reports, Crowley took a similar stance. Whilst he would be seen to promote strict working methods in his writings, fellow practitioners would witness him leaving the protective confines of the circle without detrimental effect; musing that he was already such a bastard that demonic influence held no bearing over him.

Approaching from the perspective of negotiation, consider all the above: Presenting the objects associated with the demon you wish to attract; Elements of protection; Adapting your behaviour or personality to better suit the demon.

Noting Devakxes' rather good suggestion of wine, also consider the nature of personal sacrifice. My last glass of absinthe holds a value beyond that of coin. An object which requires a journey and effort to acquire holds magickal power. Objects which take a long time to make and follow specific formulae are of worth.

And if it all goes awry, a fist full of salt can come in handy. ;)

First matter would be to find a task for which you might require assistance.

[chestermccoy]

Thank you all very much, you have been very helpful.

[Dajai]

Not sure whether the "demon/angel" thing is bothering any other occultists here but I don't see how the two can be presented as polar opposites.

The terror that angels can bring *vastly outweighs anything that a demon is capable of. My understanding is that they are *exceptionally difficult to communicate with; requiring the undertaking of many laborious tasks and use of an unshakable will.

Unless we're talking about the fluffy Victorian interpretation of "angels" - in which case one might as well use chaos magick to work with the Thundercat pantheon.

Angels are not good and demons are not evil - a notion I can only presume as being promoted due to the "/" as though one is the counterpart of the other. Both entity types fulfil their own function.

At a stretch - in terms of division - you could regard angels as God's messengers and demons as our messengers.

Starting with a demon of low rank would be most safe if you perceive any danger in such operations.

[krimson]

Guess I'm kind of late jumping in on this. But whatever. Here's the thing: you're asking very broad questions and the answers are going to vary depending on the spiritual views of those who are replying. Theistic Satanists are going to have a very different view from Wiccans and certainly from Christians. Keep that in mind while sifting through answers. What one person believes is 'correct' is not necessarily fact, it is opinion based on their spiritual views. I will try to give unbiased advice, and hopefully this will lead you in the direction you are looking to go.

First, let us address the issue of selling one's soul. Your soul is not an object outside of yourself that can be 'sold.' Your soul is YOU. So essentially, someone who 'sold' their soul would be submitting their eternal energy(their whole self) to whatever entity chosen to make the pact with. This can have many different consequences, depending on the entity and the pact itself. As with any legal proceeding, there are indeed fine lines in the spiritual world. I am also going to add that the selling of souls is not something that is commonly practiced among Spiritual Satanists, Luciferians, Theistic Satanists and others who do work with demons. I would also go as far as to say that soul selling is something that would be more commonly practiced among those who are outsiders, aka those who have no knowledge or history of demons.

Second, let us define what a demon is. Some believe that demons are not evil in the least, they are powerful and wise energy with an incorrect negative connotation. Some believe that demons are ANY kind of negative entity associated with maliciousness. Before going forward with any kind of ritual or pact, the decision must be made as to exactly what kind of entity you will be working with. Choosing a specific entity with a formal name will eliminate the tricky gray areas that are counterproductive in magick. To find a specific entity, simply do your own research. Taking a few weeks to look into this information will help out in the long run. Ignorance almost always leads to mistakes in such matters.

Third, protection and offerings...protecting yourself can be done in a variety of ways. Psychic and energy shielding, casting a circle, defining your space (as in claiming the magick space you are working in as yours, without any entities allowed to penetrate it uninvited.), wearing essential oils or herbs that help with protection (frankincense etc). I recommend the first three ALWAYS. As far as offerings go, some demons have different associations and preferences that can be researched. But honestly, it is all about your INTENT. If the entity knows that your offering is intended to please them, they will accept this. A feeble offering from the heart is better than an extravagant offering with careless disregard.

What I want to stress above all is research. Your instincts are a great tool, they can sort out misinformation almost instantly. If something does not resonate with you, move on and find something that does. Truth is relative, knowledge is power. Take care.

[Hot Tea]

[QUOTE=krimson;40374]Guess I'm kind of late jumping in on this. But whatever. Here's the thing: you're asking very broad questions and the answers are going to vary depending on the spiritual views of those who are replying. Theistic Satanists are going to have a very different view from Wiccans and certainly from Christians. Keep that in mind while sifting through answers. What one person believes is 'correct' is not necessarily fact, it is opinion based on their spiritual views. I will try to give unbiased advice, and hopefully this will lead you in the direction you are looking to go.

good advice to take during your search. Other than that, I do know of one practice that can lend some power to your "negotiation" but it works by feeding off of emotional pain and is hard to use. Sit and think of an object that you have a powerful attachment to, something that your heart would hurt if it were to not be there(an OBJECT people, nothing more, why do i have to put this?) The idea is to take the object and burn it after your initial dealings and you have stated what you wish. Your emotions become very powerful while you watch and it shows the entity exactly how serious you were. Its very emotionally stressing and works best with sentimental objects. You may say its too intense but so is trying to create a partnership with an unknown "something".