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abyss_mystic
04-12-2011, 12:00 AM
As with all patriarchal hostile take overs of goddess worshiping religion. The worshipers of Marduk and the elder gods eleminated all trace of the previous religion. but underground cults must pass down the rites and magicks of the ancient religion. Has anyone out there came across anything about tiamat being anything other than a monster? The epic of creation for its most part portrays her as a patient mother who only on extreme provocation turn on her ungrateful children. it seems strange the male led cult of Marduk would go to such extremes to eliminate all evidence of the mothers religion. Any thoughts?

KashakuTatsu
04-12-2011, 11:59 AM
Responding half drunk and from work so bare with....
It really boils down to the whole dark vs light/chaos vs order aspect. In the deity lists, Tiamat and Abzu are not seen as the parents of all as they should be but evil monsters who were conquered by the champion. Their role is replaced by other deities after the inserection and they were all but left to the sands of time. It's like the "new order" of things refused to accept that in the darkness of the abyss/void/sea the parents created them and give the proper respect.

And for those who give them their respect and honour are often seen as evil themselves for honouring chaos gods. "Oh you worship Tiamat? You're a demon worshiper" "No you sod, she's the ground beneath you, sky above you and her blood gives life. The mother of all, give her respect."

It has been shown that new religions or sects of the same religion will demonize the faith of the previous one to gain control of the population in the area. It is theorized by theologans that the christian bible was referring to Tiamat in attempts to stamp out mesopotamian worship all together, as an example.

abyss_mystic
04-12-2011, 04:38 PM
Half drunk n just in from work or not? That was exactly my thoughts and views on the situation. I glad I've met someone who recognises the hypocracies of the orthodoxy. Just because I empathise with the void and channel my worship to an almost forgotten mother goddess I dont need to be looked down on as some sort of demon worshiper. Thank you for reafirming my belief that their are like minded people out there....:)

KashakuTatsu
04-12-2011, 05:19 PM
actually I was half drunk at work trying to type that... now dealing with a hangover trying to start XD

but np, I know it's hard to find those of like opinion.

devakxes
04-12-2011, 07:51 PM
The idea is that the elders gods created the universe and gave order to Chaos. He slayed Tiamat and made the earth out of her body and the sky from her wings. She is an Ancient One and is thus primordial - thus she sleeps. Most of the ancient ones are said to slumber or have become blinded by the act of creation.

The sumerians worshiped these elder gods because they represented nature. They followed in their own ''zones'' or ''courses'' (speaking in reference to the sky deities who have their own gates to keep those Without from coming Within). If you worshiped the ancient ones in the olden days, you worshiped death, chaos, and ultimately agreed that the elder ones are powerless to the ones who they defeated which was a blasphemy.

They were still worshiped, because the ''tablets of enki'' ( or was it enlil?) said that Apsu would rise, uniting heaven and earth... devouring the universe. Those who worshiped such entities believed they would be spared upon Armageddon. However, it was ultimately believed as well that since we are still of the cosmic order - we too would be devoured - regardless if we were born ''of the blood'' of Kingu who was an Ancient One that was slayed to create humanity (and as he is the source of our life, we are also his prison).

The rites of the sumerian pagans helped keep the natural order of things in line by pleasing their harsh deities (which represented their harsh environments) and by pleasing them, they were blessed with less disturbances from Without and the gates were better guarded. If they were not to give the proper sacrifices and offerings, perform their sacraments or whatever... they believed the universe would ultimately fall into chaos. Then you have Ereshkigal who is ''the goddess whom no one worshipeth'' who kills those who don't perform said rituals above... and Ishtar/Inanna who is said to give life to those who do follow the rituals in death. Humanity basically is forced to follow a specific set of guidelines and societal laws or else they perish and everything else perishes.

It boils down to if you think the universe is a chaotic and scary place with temporary forms of order here and there - or if you view it as a sublime and divinely ordered realm that is occasionally chaotic or disturbed. The former is a blasphemy and the latter is ''reality'' to the sumerians.

Really, I think it was just a bunch of myths used to explain their way of looking at the world - then later used to control humanity by controlling their sense of purpose, as well as their fears.

abyss_mystic
04-12-2011, 09:31 PM
devakxes u seem up to speed on Sumerian mythos. Thanks for sharing ur thoughts on the issue I raised I'm abit limited in local company to discuss such matters.

abyss_mystic
04-12-2011, 09:45 PM
I view the Elder gods and Marduk as alive and well disguised in the tri-form of the Abrahamic God. The mother still slumbers deep in the void beneath the known universe. I feel that her dreams are fitful and she stirs in her dreams, I just feel that the time to start back with the prayers to her are right. I been looking to find a new paradigm to work with and Tiamat seems right at the minute. :D

devakxes
04-13-2011, 01:55 AM
The abrahamic god was ''designed'' in mesopotamia. Sumeria is part of mesopotamia.

So you could be right.

I personally don't agree with their paradigm, but I don't judge you for choosing your path. There are some who believe it is only spirit that must survive in the end when Dies Irae (the day of wrath) comes, and then there are those who believe that their own consciousness must die in the end and return to Tiamat - but that this ''death'' is more desirable than what will come on Dies Irae.

KashakuTatsu
04-13-2011, 06:50 AM
Really, I think it was just a bunch of myths used to explain their way of looking at the world - then later used to control humanity by controlling their sense of purpose, as well as their fears.

Aye this can be applied to any of the religions or spiritual ideas. "why did (insert natural disaster here) happen? God/mother earth is punishing sinners!" while ignoring the trend of said natural disaster happening in cycles. "You Angelians are wicked and will have a bad quake!" Really now? Cause we get them every 10-20 yrs when they make their rounds around the ring of fire. It's been ~15 yrs since the last major one to hit this fault, so of course I'm waiting with my quake proofing! (Have been batting with people over this the past few days so it's really fresh and much an irk lol.)

Also agreed with the use of mythos to control the mass populous. This again is seen over and over again. Then trying to open people to that idea makes them call you "evil", "heretic", etc... well ty.

devakxes
04-13-2011, 03:32 PM
The egyptians made their gods based off of ''natural principles'' that can be compared to plato's ''First Principles.'' The word for this was ''neteru.'' The interactions of these principles caused what is the phenomena of the natural order around us. By becoming ''in harmony'' with said principles (or literally becoming them and uniting with their gods) they would survive the physical death and ascend into the heavenly realms. The egyptians had the principle of ''Humanity'' or the ''highest'' ... ''nobility'' which was Horus... whose blood line was egyptian royalty. The actions of the Pharaoh were what the rest of humanity was supposed to do (for the advancement of the human race). The priest-hood of whatever god the Pharaoh worshiped, generally manipulated the pharaoh by explaining how to harmonize with the deity. This was the farthest extent that manipulation went in egypt, besides on a personal level.
The culture ultimately fell because they were peaceful people who considered themselves more refined, and thus their people were attacked by the greeks and romans and other cultures. Their afterlife was seen as a heavenly place... since they were going to unite with their god in the afterlife.

The mesopotamians did not really believe humans could ever attain the Heavenly Realm unless you were a hero of some sort or did something special for the gods. The majority (the major deities were based off of natural principles) were just random creations to explain their myths. Humans were basically sentenced to live in the underworld unless they worshiped some sort of deity that promised them a happy afterlife (rebirth). Their version of the underworld can be compared to the greek Hades. Since not everyone knew of these resurrection deities... or were too poor to worship them... everyone in mesopotamia basically saw death as inevitable and their fatal end as inevitable. The gods of the mesopotamians did not desire to harmonize with humans but rather wanted to play with us like slaves or puppet. The priest-hood was considered the voice of such gods and thus controlled the populace.

abyss_mystic
04-13-2011, 08:38 PM
The gods of the mesopotamians did not desire to harmonize with humans but rather wanted to play with us like slaves or puppet. The priest-hood was considered the voice of such gods and thus controlled the populace.

As you say above I feel these Gods under the rule of Marduk continue their rain of terror right into modern days. He took the form in human minds as the one true God, he split his groups of worshippers into three, the Abrahamic faiths and set them upon each other. all the while destroying all traces of the mother or her worship off the face of the earth. This was to ensure no return to the old ways of natural balance with the mother/universe. To solidify his power base he has millions of human deaths and murders in his name providing him sacrifice to feed his power. As long as the major religions are at each others throats there is no way to brake his control of the world around us and usher in an age where nature, humanity and technology can evolve into a new era of harmony.


Aye this can be applied to any of the religions or spiritual ideas. "why did (insert natural disaster here) happen? God/mother earth is punishing sinners!" while ignoring the trend of said natural disaster happening in cycles.
Also agreed with the use of mythos to control the mass populous. This again is seen over and over again. Then trying to open people to that idea makes them call you "evil", "heretic", etc... well ty.

I feel these cycles of disaster are signs from the Earth that we need to get a grip and get back in touch with her and work as one organism like we were made to do. Im currently using Tiamat as my mask for the Goddess at the minute but at the core of my beliefs I believe that the mother/Earth the planet its self and all life on it are one. which is the impressions I think I'm trying to get across. I'm new to expressing myself like this online through txt. :o

KashakuTatsu
04-14-2011, 01:06 AM
I feel these cycles of disaster are signs from the Earth that we need to get a grip and get back in touch with her and work as one organism like we were made to do. Im currently using Tiamat as my mask for the Goddess at the minute but at the core of my beliefs I believe that the mother/Earth the planet its self and all life on it are one. which is the impressions I think I'm trying to get across. I'm new to expressing myself like this online through txt. :o

This is a quite common ideal, but if anything I've become much more pragmatic in life. Yes I work with elements a symbiotic relationship, not really an as one mentality... Even when we lived much closer to the land we still suffered volcanoes, storms, quakes, climate shifts, polar shifts, etc. Which is why I'm not inclined to go "we're not close enough" or "it's punishing evil".

The deities I work with I'm akin to so I try to help, but not in a traditional sense. Not only working with Tiamat in a motherly sense, but also like "awaken mother and destroy the blasphemous offspring who conspired against you!"

abyss_mystic
04-14-2011, 06:35 PM
It wasnt really my itention to suggest that we are being punished with disaster what I was meaning is that these disasters are being given a chance to make things right and gain symbiosis with the natural world before the disasters get bigger due to the ignorance and arrogance of mankind. this was why i was using the tiamat reference nature is patient with us but it will hit back with devastating results if provoked. what do u think of the comparison?

KashakuTatsu
04-14-2011, 10:30 PM
It wasnt really my itention to suggest that we are being punished with disaster what I was meaning is that these disasters are being given a chance to make things right and gain symbiosis with the natural world before the disasters get bigger due to the ignorance and arrogance of mankind. this was why i was using the tiamat reference nature is patient with us but it will hit back with devastating results if provoked. what do u think of the comparison?

As a fringe association I guess it could work for others.

Again, I don't fall into this idea of needing to make right with nature. Things happen regardless of what we do or if we're here or not. We find evidence of massive events when were were living closer to the land, if it made no difference then it will make no difference now.

Volcanoes/quakes are just ways to regulate pressure and temperature, nothing to do with the ignorance of man. Just as I made the conscious decision to live on the ring of fire, I made the decision that I'm living in a high quake area and accept it. If the pressure didn't release, worse things would happen.

devakxes
04-16-2011, 06:49 PM
As you say above I feel these Gods under the rule of Marduk continue their rain of terror right into modern days. He took the form in human minds as the one true God, he split his groups of worshippers into three, the Abrahamic faiths and set them upon each other. all the while destroying all traces of the mother or her worship off the face of the earth. This was to ensure no return to the old ways of natural balance with the mother/universe. To solidify his power base he has millions of human deaths and murders in his name providing him sacrifice to feed his power. As long as the major religions are at each others throats there is no way to brake his control of the world around us and usher in an age where nature, humanity and technology can evolve into a new era of harmony.

That is really pretty.

I think we need to be concerned about the earth, but not necessarily need to worship it and become in tune with it. I'm sure there are forces that cause natural disasters but for the most part I find all of this to be a cycle. If you read ''the secret doctrine'' by Helena Petrova Blavatsky, it takes about the poles shifting to the equator and the equator going to the poles and the entire world going crazy with the shift. Normally a continent falls (either because the surface crust is weak and it literally collapses in on itself or it will explode due to volcanos) and one rises. The natural disasters to me seem natural... or maybe we are only thinking they are more frequent because we just haven't been studying their activity for that long.

Light
04-16-2011, 11:53 PM
That is really pretty.

I think we need to be concerned about the earth, but not necessarily need to worship it and become in tune with it. I'm sure there are forces that cause natural disasters but for the most part I find all of this to be a cycle. If you read ''the secret doctrine'' by Helena Petrova Blavatsky, it takes about the poles shifting to the equator and the equator going to the poles and the entire world going crazy with the shift. Normally a continent falls (either because the surface crust is weak and it literally collapses in on itself or it will explode due to volcanos) and one rises. The natural disasters to me seem natural... or maybe we are only thinking they are more frequent because we just haven't been studying their activity for that long.

Interesting. I just had this conversation this morning actually with someone who is quite concerned about the resent events. I do also believe these disasters are natural and just part of the cycles. However, we also need to keep in mind there is more footage than ever before and it reaches us faster.

seekerofprophecies
04-17-2011, 05:55 AM
That is really pretty.

I think we need to be concerned about the earth, but not necessarily need to worship it and become in tune with it. I'm sure there are forces that cause natural disasters but for the most part I find all of this to be a cycle. If you read ''the secret doctrine'' by Helena Petrova Blavatsky, it takes about the poles shifting to the equator and the equator going to the poles and the entire world going crazy with the shift. Normally a continent falls (either because the surface crust is weak and it literally collapses in on itself or it will explode due to volcanos) and one rises. The natural disasters to me seem natural... or maybe we are only thinking they are more frequent because we just haven't been studying their activity for that long.

Not exactly from what I read, atlantis sunk because the density of the water became less than that of the land. The theory for this is that methane was the cause.