Talking to People Close to You

[Icelos]

Hello all,

I have been reading here quite a lot, but this is my first post. To give some brief background, I have been interested in the occult for some time, owning a Tarot deck and reading sporadically. My actual experimentation has been limited, for the most part due to a very frightening experience when I tried something I was not at all ready for.

Recently, I had a very powerful experience that has reignited my interest and determination to learn what's out there and what I can do. I am working from the ground up this time, largely following the curriculum of the Liber KKK.

As I'm sure everyone here knows well, training takes a significant amount of time. I currently live with my girlfriend of nearly three years. Since we share a home, obviously I do not have a great level of privacy. So far I have been practicing when she is gone, or asleep. I don't want to keep trying to "hide." It's not that I fear derision from her. While not particularly spiritual, she used to regularly get Tarot readings and has her own deck. I just don't know how to broach the subject since this is a large and sudden change in me. Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation, or have any tips for how to discuss it with her in a way that doesn't make it seem like I've taken a sudden left turn into crazy?

Edit: I hope I have put this in the right forum. If not, please forgive the new guy.

[Astral Eye]

Firstly, hello and welcome. Now, onto the problem at hand. Perhaps try leaving a book on a shelf, and watch her reaction. If she pours over the book, then you'll probably be alright talking to her. If she starts yelling or telling you you're going to hell than talk to her calmly and explain the truth to her. Hope this helped. Let us know how it goes.

[Icelos]

Firstly, hello and welcome. Now, onto the problem at hand. Perhaps try leaving a book on a shelf, and watch her reaction. If she pours over the book, then you'll probably be alright talking to her. If she starts yelling or telling you you're going to hell than talk to her calmly and explain the truth to her. Hope this helped. Let us know how it goes.

Haha, she certainly won't be telling me I'll go to hell. She does not hold any strong religious beliefs. In fact, I already have the I Ching and a couple tarot books on the shelf lol. She knows what I believe, at a basic level. What I am struggling with is how to explain that I want to take time out of each day for meditation and why I have objects symbolizing the four elements that I have made. For me it feels like a natural change that has been building for all my life. But to her, the person she's known all this time decided last tuesday to begin a training regimen in something most people don't believe in at all, and is suddenly etching a pentacle into a piece of wood. She is certainly open minded. I am really having a harder time figuring out how to explain how big of a change I went through in such a short time than with the subject matter. To draw a crude analogy, it is like if you were dating someone who has never had more than a passing interest in sports who then decided that basketball was his passion and he was going to practice for at least an hour a day with no prior indicators.

Also, thanks for the welcome :)

[Icelos]

Hmm... That is good advice Iza. I think I've been building it up too much in my head, but really it will only be a big deal if I make it one. Thank you.

[Cartoon Character]

You need more I Ching. There should be several copies of the I Ching on every bookshelf in the world. It's a fact. Oh, and welcome to OF.

[Icelos]

Thank you :cool:

And while I must admit I only have one copy of the I Ching, I also have the Tao de Ching (Lao Tzu), Chang-Tzu, and have the baghua tattooed over my heart :p

[Cartoon Character]

Cool. The Lao Tzu and the Chuang Tzu are seminal texts, and I'd also recommend the Lieh Tzu for a more down to earth rendering of Taoist thought. The Bagua is close to my heart as well, although not as close in the physical sense as it is to yours, I see.

[Icelos]

Cool. The Lao Tzu and the Chuang Tzu are seminal texts, and I'd also recommend the Lieh Tzu for a more down to earth rendering of Taoist thought. The Bagua is close to my heart as well, although not as close in the physical sense as it is to yours, I see.

Haha, well it's not physical proximity that counts. I'll have to check that out. Even though it's an important part of my worldview, I don't know much beyond the introductory writings. If you have any more suggestions, particularly any that deal with Taoist rituals/magic, I would be very interested.

[Cartoon Character]

Keep in mind that the textual tradition is meant as a sort of guide, and are only writings. The philosophical school by itself only occupies a relatively small sector of overall Taoist thought and practice, but hints at aspects of inner alchemy, immortality and magic. As for modern texts outlining more ritualistic and magical practice, well, that's going to be hard to come by. Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson has a series of books dealing with the Zheng Yi branch and those practices from the lineage, but they are quite pricey. Also, the "religion" of Dao Jiao is different from Western ideas of religion in that it really refers to what might be called magic anyway. So, any religious texts you come across will essentially be based around alchemical and magical workings, although it may not be apparent. Much of what you're probably looking for will be talismanic and is found in the Mao Shan tradition, so researching Mao Shan or Shang Qing Taoism might be a good place to start for a general overview.

As far as more accessible books are concerned, Eva Wong is an independent scholar and lineage holder in two different traditions, and her translations and books on Taoism generally speaking are great. You can find most all of her work on Amazon.com. That's where I'd recommend starting.

[Icelos]

Ah, and this is exactly why I am glad to have someone to give me advice. I am only familiar with the philosophical writings, and have used them as a general guide which have a great deal of personal meaning to me. I knew that there was a magical/ritualistic tradition as well, but was not sure how they were related as I have had trouble finding any good information on them (which is not so surprising reading your comments), and I don't know the relationships between the different traditions. But I would certainly like to learn. Even though I don't treat it is an absolute dogmatic approach, the I Ching and the other writings were the first to open my mind to the way existence is built on interrelated changes.

My hat is off to you sir, and I am your humble student :p

(If parts of this do not make sense I apologize, I have been partaking of the gift of another god. Io Bacchus!),

[Cartoon Character]

Although it is also a Confucian Classic, the I Ching can be considered the central Daoist text, and the Lao Tzu is seen as being canonical in the religious traditions. That being said, the different traditions cannot and do not exist independently of one another. Likewise, although there are many different schools, none debate or doubt the validity of the others (contrast this with some other systems of belief containing multiple branches, and you begin to get an idea of the Daoist mind.) So, in reality, there really are not separate "traditions", but rather one tradition that utilizes different methods for achieving its goal. It's good you take a non-dogmatic approach, as Dao is not dogmatic. And thank you for saying so, but you should hold on to your hat. You may need it if you become a Buddhist and find yourself without a begging bowl.

[Aradia]

Hello and Welcome to Occult Forums. Sorry for the late welcome.

[Icelos]

Although it is also a Confucian Classic, the I Ching can be considered the central Daoist text, and the Lao Tzu is seen as being canonical in the religious traditions. That being said, the different traditions cannot and do not exist independently of one another. Likewise, although there are many different schools, none debate or doubt the validity of the others (contrast this with some other systems of belief containing multiple branches, and you begin to get an idea of the Daoist mind.) So, in reality, there really are not separate "traditions", but rather one tradition that utilizes different methods for achieving its goal. It's good you take a non-dogmatic approach, as Dao is not dogmatic. And thank you for saying so, but you should hold on to your hat. You may need it if you become a Buddhist and find yourself without a begging bowl.

Ah. That makes a great deal of sense. Since I was raised Christian (even though it didn't take :p) I tend to fall into the trap of thinking of separate schools of thought as denominations. And I suppose I ought to keep my hat. Buddhism or no, I'm closer to needing a begging bowl than I'd like to admit.

Also, thanks for the welcome Aradia.

[Cartoon Character]

Well, it's not really incorrect to think of them as different denominations per se (Quanzhen and Zheng Yi, for example, have some different practices), as the common goal is usually shared. There are just different areas of focus within different branches. In Dao Jiao, Quanzhen is mostly non-talismanic, whereas the Zheng Yi school uses talismans. But the Quanzhen school doesn't believe that talismans are ineffective or that their use is wrong. It's just not seen as being as necessary or important in that school. At first glance, it appears that there is a lot of disagreement between branches, as there are so many with different practices, but this is because no one methodology is seen as being "correct" over all others. The idea of Protestant vs. Catholic, for example, has no real equivalent in Daoism. Different areas resonate better with different people than others. "Yi zong qian shu" (One school/family, one thousand methods/techniques.)

[Icelos]

Well, it's not really incorrect to think of them as different denominations per se (Quanzhen and Zheng Yi, for example, have some different practices), as the common goal is usually shared. There are just different areas of focus within different branches. In Dao Jiao, Quanzhen is mostly non-talismanic, whereas the Zheng Yi school uses talismans. But the Quanzhen school doesn't believe that talismans are ineffective or that their use is wrong. It's just not seen as being as necessary or important in that school. At first glance, it appears that there is a lot of disagreement between branches, as there are so many with different practices, but this is because no one methodology is seen as being "correct" over all others. The idea of Protestant vs. Catholic, for example, has no real equivalent in Daoism. Different areas resonate better with different people than others. "Yi zong qian shu" (One school/family, one thousand methods/techniques.)

Yes, I understand what you're getting at. I meant that I tend to fall in to that mindset where every practice is mutually exclusive, but that isn't the case here. Are there any particular resources you would recommend for learning about Zheng Yi/talismanic magic? I find it quite interesting.

[Cartoon Character]

Well, the Zheng Yi or Orthodox Way school is a religious sect, and as such, the "magick" end of things is comparatively small in relation to scriptures, prayers, meditations, daily devotional things, etc. You might try researching online, and learning what you can about Zhang Daoling, the Celestial Master and the Tian Shi or Celestial Master school of Dao Jiao. Much of the talismanic and exorcistic (as well as healing) practices that are thought of as being Daoist are historically attributed to him. Again, Eva Wong and Livia Kohn have some great writings that can be helpful here.

[Icelos]

Well, the Zheng Yi or Orthodox Way school is a religious sect, and as such, the "magick" end of things is comparatively small in relation to scriptures, prayers, meditations, daily devotional things, etc. You might try researching online, and learning what you can about Zhang Daoling, the Celestial Master and the Tian Shi or Celestial Master school of Dao Jiao. Much of the talismanic and exorcistic (as well as healing) practices that are thought of as being Daoist are historically attributed to him. Again, Eva Wong and Livia Kohn have some great writings that can be helpful here.


Ah. Thank you. This should give me a good start.