Chaos Star

[Alice]

Does the chaos star have anything to do with chaos magick?

Also, does the fact that I seem to be rather...instinctually attracted to the chaos star in any way indicate that I should perhaps look into trying out chaos magick? I'm not really very knowledgeable about any of this, but I am curious, so any hints or indication would help.

[Alice]

That's the whole thing, I'm not really that sure what chaos magick is. I've read other threads that talk about "organizing nothing into something to manifest your will" and "vortex energies" and whatnot, but--idk if I'm thick or what--it doesn't really serve as an explanation. Throwing terms about doesn't make me understand what it is.

[Cartoon Character]

The Chaos Star is symbolic of Chaos Magick, in a way similar to how the Taiji symbol (Yin and Yang) is symbolic of Daoism. That being said, the eight pointed star looks kinda cool, so it may be that you just dig it in that sense. Chaos Magick is not all of the stuff that people make it out to be, but it is magick in the fundamental sense. These things are part of the Chaos paradigm, but some of these aspects are more or less trappings of the system, and Chaos Magick is no different in this sense. Which sort of defeats the purpose of Chaos paradigm doing away with systems in the first place.

[Emrys Rezal]

What about the use of the Chaos star in the Warhammer tabletop game? Does anyone know if this came before or after the use of the symbol by Occultists?

[Cartoon Character]

Now that, I really couldn't say.

[daecon]

If by chaos star you are referring to the common symbol of chaos that looks like 8 arrows originating from a central point, that symbol was invented by Michael Moorcock in his Elric series c. 1960. It represents a Cartesian coordinate system in four dimensions, implying unlimited freedom of movement.

Warhammer fantasy battle first came out in 1983, long after the symbol was known to gamers and fantasy fans. It became more popular in the early 90's with the release of the hero heavy fourth edition.

What we now call Chaos Magick came about around the same time, late 70's and early 80's. The basic concepts of magical paradigms and creative ritualism were present, but it wasn't called "chaos" yet. That seems to have come about when the need for a fundamentally agnostic "religion" to fuel thaumaturgic spells led many magicians to Discordianism.

While there was always an overlap between magicians and fans of high fantasy, they started converging in the mid to late 90's, as some magicians started deliberately using pop culture paradigms in magic. Comic book artist Grant Morrison, for example, has claimed his Invisibles series is a massive AOS style sigil.

[|||||]

I would recommend just reading the liber null and the liber kkk by peter carrol, its not all that much reading and can't hurt anything. I don't consider myself a chaos magician really, ok maybe a little, but either way I did get something out of those works. if your still interested read the psychonaut and liber chaos also by carroll and condensed chaos by phil hine, there's also a great many other books. and if you haven't already read some spare, in my opinion it is essential even if you don't follow his ideas precisely. in my opinion just read a lot of books period.

[KashakuTatsu]

Gotta love the simplifies chaote creed... "nothing is true, all is permissible"

If that wasn't beat into my head during the courses at the local apothecary I go to lol

[|||||]

the funny thing is, that is just the area where I disagree with chaos magick. in my view everything is true, everything is permissible, if you will.

[Cartoon Character]

It also means that nothing is true. Pretty chaotic, eh?

[KashakuTatsu]

If everything is true, then all the contradicting points are simultaneously true and it's true that nothing is true, while also true that truth is merely a perception of one's own reality map and if that's not true than it goes back to being true because everything it true and nothing is true all at once!

[Cartoon Character]

If everything is true, then all the contradicting points are simultaneously true and it's true that nothing is true, while also true that truth is merely a perception of one's own reality map and if that's not true than it goes back to being true because everything it true and nothing is true all at once!

KashakuTastsu, YOU win the prize!!!

[Drunk]

If everything is true, then all the contradicting points are simultaneously true and it's true that nothing is true, while also true that truth is merely a perception of one's own reality map and if that's not true than it goes back to being true because everything it true and nothing is true all at once!


Awesome....but god, i've got a headache now. lol :)

[Cartoon Character]

No, you don't. Which I suppose also means that you do.

[Alice]

If by chaos star you are referring to the common symbol of chaos that looks like 8 arrows originating from a central point, that symbol was invented by Michael Moorcock in his Elric series c. 1960. It represents a Cartesian coordinate system in four dimensions, implying unlimited freedom of movement.

Warhammer fantasy battle first came out in 1983, long after the symbol was known to gamers and fantasy fans. It became more popular in the early 90's with the release of the hero heavy fourth edition.

What we now call Chaos Magick came about around the same time, late 70's and early 80's. The basic concepts of magical paradigms and creative ritualism were present, but it wasn't called "chaos" yet. That seems to have come about when the need for a fundamentally agnostic "religion" to fuel thaumaturgic spells led many magicians to Discordianism.

While there was always an overlap between magicians and fans of high fantasy, they started converging in the mid to late 90's, as some magicians started deliberately using pop culture paradigms in magic. Comic book artist Grant Morrison, for example, has claimed his Invisibles series is a massive AOS style sigil.

That's actually not what I'm referring to. Oddly enough, I'm not a big fan of that symbol. I guess an equally accurate way if describing it would be an...octagram? An eight-pointed star? Which I'm told represents chaos.

[Alice]

If everything is true, then all the contradicting points are simultaneously true and it's true that nothing is true, while also true that truth is merely a perception of one's own reality map and if that's not true than it goes back to being true because everything it true and nothing is true all at once!Awesome....but god, i've got a headache now. lol :)

o.o Is it bad that I don't? Have a headache, that is. To be honest, I followed that train of thought, and at the end of it felt like, "Indeed. Moving on?" lol :cool:

[Alice]

Nope, that's not bad. Moving on, indeed. And Alice, take a look at my avatar for a possible clue about your question.

Yes, I recognize the trigrams of the I-Ching (I've dabbled in it a little, though I find I'm much more accurate with Tarot) arranged into a form similar to that of the Chaos Star (or what I call the "chaos wheel"--the circle with the eight arrows pointing away from it).

[|||||]

I rather like contradictions. :D

what KashakuTatsu said was exactly my point. the phrase nothing is true is just so, I don't know, over simplified. reminds me of nihilism. then again if you want to use nihilism as a paradigm obviously you can because its even in the liber null. but i don't like using that paradigm, it upsets me, I know because I've done it. so i'll stick with the phrase everything is true because I just like it better. by the way none of this matters its just my boring opinion on linguistics.

[daecon]

That's actually not what I'm referring to. Oddly enough, I'm not a big fan of that symbol. I guess an equally accurate way if describing it would be an...octagram? An eight-pointed star? Which I'm told represents chaos.

A second order stellated octagon. Any association with chaos would be because the Moorcock symbol is eight sided. It does have an ancient meaning, though. It was once the symbol of the goddess Inanna of the Sumerians.

There's a related octagram (the first order stellated octagon) that's formed by superimposing one square on another. In Christian symbolism it represents rebirth and is sometimes used as the shape of a baptismal font.

[Alice]

A second order stellated octagon. Any association with chaos would be because the Moorcock symbol is eight sided. It does have an ancient meaning, though. It was once the symbol of the goddess Inanna of the Sumerians.

There's a related octagram (the first order stellated octagon) that's formed by superimposing one square on another. In Christian symbolism it represents rebirth and is sometimes used as the shape of a baptismal font.

No, the one I find most attractive is the one that's drawn as one continuous line. A simplistic example of what I'm talking about can be seen here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Octagram.png/594px-Octagram.png

As opposed to the one you mentioned: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Ashthalakshmi_-_Star_of_Laxmi.svg/200px-Ashthalakshmi_-_Star_of_Laxmi.svg.png
Which apparently is also a symbol in Islam? (according to some snippets I saw in my image search lol)

[daecon]

[QUOTE=Alice;44014]No, the one I find most attractive is the one that's drawn as one continuous line. A simplistic example of what I'm talking about can be seen here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Octagram.png/594px-Octagram.png

Yes, that's the one. Also known as the {8/3} star octagon. It can be formed by connecting every third point of a set of 8 until you return to the first. Since 8 and 3 are relatively prime, this forms a continuous line. It's sometimes used as a sort of "stealth-pent," standing in for the more recognizable Moorcock chaos symbol when the actual symbol would attract too much attention. It has no chaotic associations that predate 1960.

The octagram that looks like two squares is the {8/2} polygon, formed by connecting every other vertex. Since 8 and 2 share a factor, it cannot be drawn as a unicursal. Note, however, that the {8/2} can be seen in the middle of the {8/3}. This is what makes the {8/3} the second order stellation. All regular stellations can be formed by extending the sides of their corresponding polygon and noting where they intersect again.