PDA

View Full Version : Reason and Logos



Gazeeboh
01-28-2009, 04:14 PM
I am a man of science, empiricism, and thought. I do not understand however, all of this insanity that goes on here. I'm an Atheist, what you people are talking about does not exist.

Can you prove any of this? Can you take a reading, scientifically, of anything you claim?
Please by all means, summon a demon in a lab. Take James Randis challenge, become a millonaire.

Most of what I see here for explanations are just hallucinations, neural misfirings, madness, magical thinking, terrible misunderstandings and erroneous conclusions as to what actual scientific findings have proven. Mostly quantum physics.

Listen, I've read things that other people have written. Great men, great thinkers, proving things, using actual thought and Science to understand our world. I paid a lot of money to have these things told to me and spent years reading and memorizing the things these people have found out. I GET physics!

So, prove to me, as much as any established scientific law, that this is real.

Y Ddraig Goch
01-28-2009, 05:27 PM
when i mix science and occult my head hurts. ok so here it is.
in the middle ages (aka dark ages) science as well as occultism were considered as a herecy. but later on as many scientists went public about their work, the inquisition had to make changes. they've stop pursuing the scientist. so the science went on. many great scientists rose after this change was made. but the church as a political institution still prohibited the occult science, cause it was bad for their rating, and it could shake down the ultimate power the church had in that time, and still has. so those that practiced occult stayed underground and kept silence and secret of what they were doing, opposite of the scientists who got the liberty to continue their work. it is still that way today. every achievement a scientist gets it goes public. but every achievement in the occult remains a secret for the person that did it or maybe some of his close occult friends, maybe his coven, maybe his order. the occult is still a topic that is not spoken in public. yes the books can be found in bookstores. but the ignorant people that dont know a thing about the occult, even if they read some occult book will say this is crap it makes no sense and will forget the contents of the book very soon. its like reading between the lines. a truth hidden in plain sight. and yet the church did irrepairable damage to this world. before the church anything connected to the occult was a common thing. but when the church rose to power it became the greatest secret. even if this world has seen much and experienced much it is still not ready to accept the truth behind the occult and embrace it as such. and dont you ever consider that were are not living in the dark ages ??? as long as the church exists this world will be in a dark age. they are still doing what the inquisition was doing but in a modern way. lets say some scientist is doing research on cloning. if he goes public, after few hours his funds will be cut off, his lab closed down. and if he is lucky he will only lose his carrier. think of the cloning research as of the occult. i wrote this down just to point out why things are the way they are. but as someone wise said long time ago: "nothing is impossible if you have faith in it"

Gazeeboh
01-28-2009, 08:40 PM
Sometimes I get worried about that too Lady D. What if I'm just part of someone elses
life/dream? I suppose I am, the crest of a wave in the ocean of God, that will someday return to being calm water. Of course I'll just get blown up again by the winds.

I actually think that science and religion are the same thing but different approaches. They both seek answers, the one uses literal devices while the other uses metaphors. I can describe an orange as a sun fruit with bitter sweet tears or a tropical fruit that grows on trees and contains vitamn C. Either way.

I was just wondering how you would go about explaining your beliefs to an materialistic person, an atheist, or whatever. You know the type. "Science is all that matters and anything else is a mental disorder." I didn't think we had any people like that here so I did it myself.

S33k3R
01-29-2009, 06:40 AM
What about undermining there belief in the absolute?

Look, things are "testable and repeatable" in the laboratory...but those tests are still subject to the statistics of probability.

I know quantum physics is a much bandied about concept by all sides...but the underlying concept is that NOTHING is absolute, merely statistically probable.

Now that you've cracked that belief, you introduce the concept of chaos and hence potential...chaos is chaotic because its nothing definite yet...and because its nothing definite, it can become anything. Its a relatively small step to sell the concept that a persons belief can in some way influence this "potential of choas" into manifesting according to will into the real world and bada bing bada boom...magic.

To be fair I think the concept of Chaos majic are easier so sell, because its very human centric, belief, will and so on. Talking of demons, angels and the astral plane is more difficult, unless you try to dress it up as aspects of the deep human subconscious. I think keeping matter occult "Human centric" is easier to start with...once they've bitten and if they quest themselves, they will find their own version of the truth.

zoomare
01-29-2009, 11:47 AM
No matter how much evidence one has for something it will always be distorted by our humanness. Our perception of the world around us, even in a controlled environment like a laboratory, is never objective because we will always be human. The danger in science is assuming to know the absolute truth, and confusing our human world view for the objective reality. This is the same attitude that had us all believing the world was flat.

That being said I am willing to accept the notion that there are forces beyond my understanding and perception. Since I am just a beginner in subjects pertaining to magick I can't tell you if I would include it in that catagory, but time shall tell.

Gazeeboh
01-29-2009, 03:31 PM
Now your getting it.

Chaos and perception. The world is a hallucination brought on by brain chemicals. Nothing is true, everything is perception.

S33k3R
01-31-2009, 08:03 AM
That being said I am willing to accept the notion that there are forces beyond my understanding and perception. Since I am just a beginner in subjects pertaining to magick I can't tell you if I would include it in that catagory, but time shall tell.

I don't think it really matters HOW you rationalize these "forces beyond control and comprehension"...at the end of the day, no human can ever fully grasp "absolute reality", that encompasses these funky forces.

The trick is how you trick yourself into believing something and then using it. You may stick with one paradigm only, change paradigms often or create your own.

The search for truth Is a fools game.

Sachiel
02-20-2009, 04:47 AM
Fight scientific dogma with unbridled sarcasm, of course!

Zen... and the Art of Debunkery (http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/scepticism/drasin.html)

Darknight
02-26-2009, 03:40 AM
I don't think it really matters HOW you rationalize these "forces beyond control and comprehension"...at the end of the day, no human can ever fully grasp "absolute reality", that encompasses these funky forces.



Well how would one define what it is. For example forces beyond control could be anything. how ever putting it in terms of perspective by adding comprehension to it one would assume that you would be talking about forces like the spirit world god satan heaven and hell etc.

It is true as you say try as we might we will probably never be able to fully understand what is going on around us.

S33k3R
02-27-2009, 07:34 AM
Well herein lies the crux of the problem...we are unable to clearly define any of the concepts you mentioned. Oh sure...hell is a lake of fire...thats useful.
My suspicion is that, a long time ago some monk saw a volcano erupt, saw the molten lava flow...smelt the sulphur, fire and brimstone and reckoned that this must be what hell looked like. He wrote it down and voila...hell is now a lake of fire.

We are forced to put such abstract concepts as "God", or "Hell" into terms that fit in with the human condition, because if people don't understand and conceptualize these things...we tend to just ignore them.

Mankind is inherently logical, which puts us at odds with the spiritual realm which is inherently illogical...well, as far as we are concerned it is.

We are trying to open the lid on reality that is fixed with delicate Hex bolts...in his infinite wisdom...god gave man a rubber mallet to do it with. :rolleyes:

Darknight
04-03-2009, 05:35 AM
Well regarding what hell is there are multiple theories as to what it could be. I have heard of an alternate scenario where hell was just eternal darkness.

as far as what you are suggesting of malevolent beings and mythological places its almost like we are forced to acknowledge that such beings and places exist even though we have not been there.

I must admit when it comes to the supernatural and paranormal it is difficult to put logic in with the situation at hand. :(

chronazon
04-03-2009, 11:21 PM
as to the existance of spirit beings or demons and angels and the like, I would like for you to know that earth is a place where microorganisms exist, and some are beings of light. just look at this scientific american cover story
Are Aliens Among Us?: Scientific American (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=are-aliens-among-us)
I don't even know any reputable spirit being that would sit down and be killed, biopsied/cut apart in a lab. they are more intelligent than that and you, if you want to catch them, would have to grow something like chemically treated elfwort, and even then, how could you even test for it? if they are made out of light or somethinng else. when we die, lsd the molecule that keeps us alive breaks apart, and the being is no longer alive. they could probably dodge you based on this as THEY are not material. to speak of this in regards to lsd use you are not alive truly unless you take it, just as the greek mysteries explained so dearly, that walking around in the material world is an opiate illusion and the true realities are to be found within the soul, where does the reading of a book take place but within this place of the soul.
this is the fallacy of the newtonian materialist science establishment. some things are common sense to exist which are not accepted by science

chronazon
04-03-2009, 11:56 PM
I know in some hell or part of hell, the other way from the actual afterlife, the place beyond earth for when junkies get trapped behind the moon there are red cats with poison claws, purple emporer scorpions, and vicious fast black armored rock crab that also go on land.

as far as reason and logos are concerned, being unreasonable proves a detachment from the logos, or divine source of energy/life. much science, which includes such things as racist 1800's biologists and modern day psychiatry is definitly out of line with the source of all. you may still appear reasonable to yourself when out of step with the divine, but being out of line with reality has many facets/paths that a person could possibly be out of line with reality with, as long as you define reality as what is actually real, not illusions that society throws at you that are also out of sync with the logos. what is right isn't what is presented as real, some of the time. you have to learn to discriminate with reason

shintashi
04-13-2009, 08:44 AM
the word Logos actually infers to "divine reason" or the Mind of God, as discussed by Heraclitus around 500 BC, about 200 years ago before Aristotle began talking about "Physic". The term has been cut down to imply "word" and the term "word" has been cut down to mean "jumble of letters producing sound". Searching for empirical evidence of a paranormal event is something people have half assed for centuries. I've seen so much video, so many news articles, so much published material, and had so many personal encounters, that I wonder - seriously, what is it that people were offered in exchange for turning their heads away from common sense?

Trading superstition for Science is only trading one magical system for another. Science has already capitalized on several aspects of Alchemy (became chemistry), Herbalism (became pharmacology), Numerology (became statistics) and Astrology (became astronomy). But if you do your homework, you will realize their system has some serious flaws. Even Karl Popper pointed them out.

I think you will find it impossible for physics to study metaphysics - even aristotle made them separate books.

Plarkenstorf
07-18-2009, 02:35 AM
Metaphysics can mean beyond physics, Epicurean atomism used to be metaphysics, now we've even gone past the Bohr model into Schroedinger wave equations and all that jazz.

Metaphysics can also mean "beyond natural", nature is essentially the system of the universe. Beyond that system, some say, lies God, the world of Forms or various other things.

The truth is, there isn't much point using any sort of empirical inquiry into what's "beyond nature" - all inquiry we would use to study it would be empirical, as we're bound by inductive reasoning to discover supposed first principals.

We have a foothold in statistical correlations, but even they're limited by our perceptions - the idea of studying a system outside of logic with logic is flawed by definition.

Jastiv
08-07-2009, 10:20 PM
I was just wondering how you would go about explaining your beliefs to an materialistic person, an atheist, or whatever. You know the type. "Science is all that matters and anything else is a mental disorder." I didn't think we had any people like that here so I did it myself.

Mostly I don't bother trying to explain my beliefs to them. Occasionaly I will point out that they should try out some occult rituals and see their results if I think they are the type who might benefit from it, but for a hardcore rational person, I don't know that they would get anything out of it anyway (as opposed to more emotional types)

Atheism isn't a philosophy that works for me, and I don't get any benefits from following it or practicing it. I feel atheism places too much of a negative value judgment on the unseen, mysticism and the occult, so I would explain my philosophy as being in opposition to that.

The most you can really do with those types of people, I think it get them to respect the fact that people are different and not everyone will agree with them about what they see as important in life.

Justinfh
06-14-2010, 12:05 AM
Now your getting it.

Chaos and perception. The world is a hallucination brought on by brain chemicals. Nothing is true, everything is perception.

Does that mean that I don't exist? :D

Vir Sapiens
06-14-2010, 01:07 AM
Can you prove that you exist? It isn't possible to offer proof of a negative like non existence but, most people have trouble proving they exist at any given moment. Your existence cannot be verified in any contiguous way. You may be a figment of my imagination and when you leave you fade into oblivion until recalled by my fertile imagination. Even your physicality is not undeniable proof of existence.

devakxes
06-14-2010, 03:15 AM
I think from a psychological perspective, if you are going so far as to create an account and then say something like that to us... then clearly some form of you believes - that or someone screwed you over and was an occultist or pagan or satanist or what-the-hell-ever and by condemning us, this is your means of going and getting over what problems you have.

Maybe you're just curious.

Maybe you don't have a life.

So why are you asking us this?

ledrakezho
02-16-2012, 10:40 PM
sir, I am a man of knowledge and science. But also am I that of a mystic shall we say. Sir, you ask me to bring proof into the conversation that spirits are real. I give you the evidence of e.v.p.s, e.m.f. detectors, K2 meters, the interaction of spirits with the living captured even on film by popular t.v. shows. Sir, you ask me to summon a demon in a lab and see what happens, sir that has already been performed and to reveal some substantially shocking results. Maybe not a demon but a spirit of some sort.
A man of science such as yourself then would also know of the psychological affects of symbols and certain situations and their effects on the brain. It is shown that even if not actually working a spell of a sort, but you think you have, then you have. I accept that perhaps what i am doing is all in my head, sir. But if it is, then my brain is capable of some pretty amazing things. The average human only uses ten percent of their brain, there is so much potential waiting to be unlocked! But what if we whom are of believers have achieved in the unlocking of that potential. Whether it through ritual, prayer, meditation, or visualization, which by your facts found in studies no doubt show that those kinds of practices lead individuals to be smarter, and be more capable of a lot of things those who do not are not. I do not talk those things as some chore but an actual engagement with pure belief int hose things that cause a firestorm of activity in the brain to be possible. I do not believe that the power of the supernatural lies outside the mind but within ourselves. We are man, a creature hailed even in the myths of the divine beings we are so fond of. We are man who are capable of things beyond gods and spirits. I am myself, my own man, my own ruler, my own god and it is my choice to befriend the imagination and power of it and those within it. The essence of me is the essence of the gods i do not come from them, they come from within me.