Theory of Advanced Thoughtforms

[Saeiane]

I no longer wish to contribute to this forum, my apologies, but I'll be removing anything that was my own work (Essays, pathworkings, training exercises, and the like.)

Since Lady Dunsany has left these forums, they have decayed and degenerated, in my opinion. I see no one and nothing left of the greatness that I saw when I first arrived. Goodbye everyone.

[S33k3R]

Very interesting, but what of control?

An Egragore is created by a group but is given set parameters to operate within. Surely you would still need to maintain a semblance of control or leverage over the entity?

I've always believed that thought created entities are a duel bladed weapon, the negative side is that, as it was created by you, it holds an essence of you within it. You, (or a group), are inextricably linked with you creation...should some outer negative influence attack or take possession of your entity, it would have a powerful and unlimited gateway to the creators. Surely by instilling it with a base set of principles, (even simple ones), you are protecting both your created entity and yourself?

Just a thought :)

[Lady Dunsany]

I have the same question. I am thinking of the tulpa whom Alexandra David-Neel, claimed to have created in the form of a jolly Friar-Tuck-like monk. After a while, the creation became a problem , when it took control on it's own. She was forced to destroy it through a process of re-absorbing the energy of the tulpa into herself. Her health was totally ruined from that day on. One of the non benefits of thought control. I guess we should think about ethics in whatever we decide to involve ourselves with.

[bakeneko]

Now, these principals can be applied to many things, for instance a fantasy world, ( like say a cartoon TV show ) can be accessed through astral projection (I've done it) or to a card game, say you take a Wirewood Savage Magic: The Gathering card, through a certain process; you can make an astral window into the setting and world the card represents, and in doing so. Summon the entity in the card! (I did this with a Reiver Demon card, quite a dangerous boyo he was, a bit more tame and he would've made a GREAT protector for my home.)
Now, these methods DO have pitfalls, for instance. I wouldn't recommend trying to go to the "world" of a show with an unstable storyline, ( a few Adult Swim programs come to mind ) unless perhaps you confined the projection to that certain episode- but as I've NOT tried that, I cannot recommend it one way or the other.

But anyhow, I got off track. The point here is to open your minds to the possibility of summoning entities of fantasy for different purposes. Though, always, always, always validate the identity! And be sure (at least mildly, if not, then no harm- unless you tried summoning something like a Barbed Wire Hellion that could quite possibly turn very hostile... In which case, g'luck. You'll need it.)

I hope my theories and insights have at least helped you somewhat, and perhaps opened your eyes to a world of possibilities...

Well, I believe that those uhm..."things" exist at least at the mental plane for certain already.
In this aspect a rather large and kinda complete system like Magic: The Gathering is surely interesting. I would begin to explore the world of this system first before I summon anything though. Just similar to shamanistic work... visit it and then try to find some new "friends". The only con about Magic seems to be that the creators put in a lot of "baddies" for the fun factor, so one should be careful ( but that was mentioned already).

[Saeiane]

Very interesting, but what of control?

An Egragore is created by a group but is given set parameters to operate within. Surely you would still need to maintain a semblance of control or leverage over the entity?

I've always believed that thought created entities are a duel bladed weapon, the negative side is that, as it was created by you, it holds an essence of you within it. You, (or a group), are inextricably linked with you creation...should some outer negative influence attack or take possession of your entity, it would have a powerful and unlimited gateway to the creators. Surely by instilling it with a base set of principles, (even simple ones), you are protecting both your created entity and yourself?

Just a thought :)


Indeed it is a very valid idea that the creation of the entity creates a bond between magickian and spirit. Though when this kind of entity is made, it has no set goals, no master to speak of unless assigned one by the creator of it.. Think of it this way, the hermetic maximum "We are all thoughts in the Divine Mind" we could all simply be egregores inadvertently created by some cosmic force (perhaps even the cosmos itself, if taken from a non-religious point of view) and through time, we ourselves evolved towards our own individual goals. So no, this type of advanced thoughtform is not controlled, mainly because in most cases it was not consciously created.

Your negative side is the basis of sympathetic magick, anything you come into contact with in the world, has a bond to you. (articles of clothing, jewelery, pictures, hell. My couch could be used as a gateway to me!) But to take back aim, the principles you mentioned would come from the original creator. I assume this is what you meant?


As for the story of the "friar monk" egregore.. In most all of the cases of "egregores gone wild!" it is because of a lapse in the magickians responsibilities, for instance in this one. The magickian forgets to feed the egregore energy, thus it searches for an energy source of it's own, and starts haunting the magickian (at least this is how I heard it- then again I also heard it took intervention from a monk to destroy the entity), in this case it can be seen that the thoughtform went mad, though it can also be taken that it got angry with it's master for not getting it's due reward and acted. Same principle applies to Rabbi Lowe's story.
Error on the part of the magickian, not the spirit. On occasion, yes it is quite possible the spirit morphs from it's original state into something warped and dangerous. I've never worked under the delusion that the astral is a completely safe, harmless place. Except perhaps before I knew it existed. (Chicken and egg thing.)

Another example of what I'm talking about here might be a cartoon I watched when I was a child Chalk Zone, drawings that had been forgotten by their creators, erased as the case may be. Transported to another realm all together, they retained their normal functions but grew new ones as well.

I hope this cleared up some concerns ?

[bakeneko]

Maybe this is getting OT, but I become very interested in trying to use Magic cards for magic (doh!).

Here a quote from from "Portable Magic" by Donald Tyson, I think the principles not only apply for Tarot, but other card systems as well (especially Magic: The Gathering):

"Each of the number cards [...] has its own elemental spirit. The nature of the spirit is defined by the function of the card.[...] The general or public name of the elemental associated with a number card is the same as the title of the card.
[...] The elemental of a number card is a simple being. Its purpose is encompassed by the nature of the card to which it is attached. It is a thinking, active embodiment of the card, with an innate urge to fulfill the function of the card. That is its reason to exist. [...] Care must be taken not to ask an elemental to do a thing it is unsuited to accomplish, since this will only result in frustration and failure." (p.195/198)

Additionally, there seems a old rule coming into play, which I learned a good while ago: When you begin to evoke or use a new system, do not evoke anything you could not wrestle physically.
And evoking something that you would be afraid of in the physical world is a bad idea too. In effect, when you have arachnophobia evoking a giant spider demon is a very bad idea.

So in a nutshell my points until now:
Important are
- the nature of the card and possible descriptions of its abilities
- physical appearance of the spirit (if available)
- attributes as strength etc.

So why was a reiver demon a not so good idea? ( a example as it was mentioned before; not a criticism of Saeiane)
- a "demonic" card, which "kills" all not "dark" creatures in the game
- a depiction of a very big demon
- high attributes (6 strength/ 6 durability)
In other words it is a big a$$ nasty, with arms like trees and the temper of a raging bull. I would not want it in my living room.

My personal choice for a start would be more like a amoeboid changeling (1/1) or a turtleshell changeling (1/4). Or if I want go a bit more "demonic" (lol) a nim shrieker ( a zombie creature but laughable weak with a stat of 0/1).
Edit: Or to make it more useful something like a leonin den-guard... Magic has so many possibilities :P

Magic was a not so fun game when I tried it a few years ago, but now in the aspect of magic (doh!²) it looks more promising. I will revive my "astral workplace" and think some stuff out...

[Saeiane]

Maybe this is getting OT, but I become very interested in trying to use Magic cards for magic (doh!).

Here a quote from from "Portable Magic" by Donald Tyson, I think the principles not only apply for Tarot, but other card systems as well (especially Magic: The Gathering):

"Each of the number cards [...] has its own elemental spirit. The nature of the spirit is defined by the function of the card.[...] The general or public name of the elemental associated with a number card is the same as the title of the card.
[...] The elemental of a number card is a simple being. Its purpose is encompassed by the nature of the card to which it is attached. It is a thinking, active embodiment of the card, with an innate urge to fulfill the function of the card. That is its reason to exist. [...] Care must be taken not to ask an elemental to do a thing it is unsuited to accomplish, since this will only result in frustration and failure." (p.195/198)

Additionally, there seems a old rule coming into play, which I learned a good while ago: When you begin to evoke or use a new system, do not evoke anything you could not wrestle physically.
And evoking something that you would be afraid of in the physical world is a bad idea too. In effect, when you have arachnophobia evoking a giant spider demon is a very bad idea.

So in a nutshell my points until now:
Important are
- the nature of the card and possible descriptions of its abilities
- physical appearance of the spirit (if available)
- attributes as strength etc.

So why was a reiver demon a not so good idea? ( a example as it was mentioned before; not a criticism of Saeiane)
- a "demonic" card, which "kills" all not "dark" creatures in the game
- a depiction of a very big demon
- high attributes (6 strength/ 6 durability)
In other words it is a big a$$ nasty, with arms like trees and the temper of a raging bull. I would not want it in my living room.

My personal choice for a start would be more like a amoeboid changeling (1/1) or a turtleshell changeling (1/4). Or if I want go a bit more "demonic" (lol) a nim shrieker ( a zombie creature but laughable weak with a stat of 0/1).
Edit: Or to make it more useful something like a leonin den-guard... Magic has so many possibilities :P

Magic was a not so fun game when I tried it a few years ago, but now in the aspect of magic (doh!²) it looks more promising. I will revive my "astral workplace" and think some stuff out...

*gives you a round of applause* beautifully said! I am impressed, I am. That's something big lol but yes. And no need about going OT, if a conversation doesn't evolve, it dies. And yes, it is a big nasty mofo. My room had a clearance of maybe 8 feet, it was hunching. I have to say I'm glad you brought this up for the people who would try to use MTG cards in their casting. I personally think it would work well, I usually bless my decks with energy that corresponds to them before a game. And it works under the same principals of tarot magick. I do remember one time during a reading I went into a minor trance and found myself inside a card, it gave me a completely new perspective on the card than I had.

[bakeneko]

Thanks a lot for the applause.

Well, actually all this even got me to buy a big pack of Magic cards again from ebay, after I am unable to find the old ones I had so long ago(they were not many anyway haha). Well, as the spirits are bound to the physical cards a magician is in a rather unique situation using Magic cards. It can be really cheap or expensive, as the actual prices of the cards have nothing to do with their potential usefulness for us.

Btw: I actually think, when taking chaos magic theory and the little stuff I said earlier about the mental plane ( I could also mention Platon's heaven of ideas) into account, that the spell and artifact cards could do something too. They just would be more difficult to work with.

Maybe a own thread about this is due?

[Saeiane]

Well, as the spirits are bound to the physical cards a magician is in a rather unique situation using Magic cards.



That just got me thinking, the magickian who might use this system. Could use the card as a sigil to some level of effectiveness, even (Possibly) to the point of keeping the spirit under control, for instance if I were to summon a Blistering Fire-Cat (God, what is with me and the big, strong, aggressive monsters ?) I could use this card as a "leash" of sorts, limiting it's actions (and even intercepting them before it does them) to keep it under control- sort of as a focal point for communication (Like how the magick sword is to be used when dealing with unruly spirits) Because their essence would be inextricably connected TO the card.

This very well has a lot of possibilities, not only with MTG cards either. Themed tarot decks, works of art, hell. When I was a kid, all my toys had little astral bodies (At the time I thought I was just imagining it) I assigned them personalities, friendships, enemies. I literally surrounded myself with Egregores before I even knew what I was doing. We're surrounded by different realities at every moment. I mean, writing a book creates a different reality. This isn't limited to cards yknow?

I like to think outside the box, break down the walls of "comfortable" occultism and magick, just rip'm down with a big sledge hammer, and see what's behind them. I've taken a lot of foul words because of this, from people who've called themselves "Experienced occultists". So I gotta say, I really appreciate being able to let out my thoughts and theories out, and have the not only questioned, but also to have them taken with some merit. :)

[bakeneko]

LOL You seem to like those wild, aggressive, high repair costs causing beasts :P


Well, my sentence was meant in interaction with the next one. That the special situation is the "clash" with a exisiting system and a community. Apparently some cards which would be suitable for a beginner would cost next to nothing ( I just got 200 red cards for 1 € lol), but some more interesting ones are just damn expensive. Or expensive ones which have no practical use outside the game itself. And if you want to skry a black lotus card to find out more about its energies...good luck finding those LOL

I see the card as a mix of a embodiment/housing and a gate. Personally I would opt for using this stuff first in a "astral workspace", but if things go awfully wrong, one could still destroy the card by burning it (bad thing if it was a super rare one).


Actually, I currently do some stuff with pictures... moving my awareness into the picture and try to "experience" it. Because of some problems that I have (see my thread in the beginner section) this works somewhere between good and so-so. Trying to communicate with the people there is sure fun and interesting.
From a comparative view: Tibetan traditions do something similar with thankas...and I guess there are some figures in pictures who can teach a thing or two too.
Yeah, this relates to all possible things. The maybe most funny thing for me was a actual magical technique which echoes a spell from the game Diablo :cool:

And back to MTG: It would sure provide some good information too, if one would not only skry the creature cards, but the land cards also (well, maybe not the common ones). Skrying before evoking is sure a smart move haha.

Another thing are the colors...I just take it as a theory, but as they play a role in the game world, they should also affect the other uses...like a kind of "background energy". Maybe just something to watch out for.


Yay, yay outside the box...

[Saeiane]

Land cards: quite a possibility as a background energy, or even used to draw energy.
And yes, skrying before summoning is probably a good idea ;p

Interesting idea about the paintings. Perhaps I could try something with an artists rendering of Saint Germain I saw once...

Also, you might not need to burn a card if things go horribly wrong. Just cleanse it thoroughly, bind it closed and seal it off.

Personally if I start practicing summoning creatures from the cards, I'm gonna start with my elf/beast deck. I'm more than confident in my ability to "wrestle" with them. lol.

I'll post here with the results of my experiments when I'm finished
( *mad scientist laugh in the back of my mind* )

Cheers.

[bakeneko]

I did not test it, but I think land cards or skrying cards would be similar to work with paintings. I did not do anything with it so far, but I can feel different energies from paintings. For once it is the special "vibe" it has from the qualities of the depictions...and then if it is a original then there is something very special to it - like the energy of its creator.
Amusingly, my best results were with some reproductions of paintings by Frank Frazetta.

I would sure like to hear some results :)
Personally I am still not sure with what to start and how. But I am rather sure with my plan about the "astral workplace". Feels more sure and I am more confident there...additionally my current abilities go in this direction anyway. Even if I would try to summon something straight away, it would be somewhere in the mental plane or lower astral plane.

A additional thought I had: If one uses such a astral place, would not the other rules of the game be possible to use there too? The dynamics are rather in the dark, but for instance if one has problems with a creature, could one use a banishing spell from the game? Just a thought...

[bakeneko]

Useful info, I think:

MtG TCG Duels from a literary perspective? - MTG Salvation Forums (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=145929)
What's the AEther? - MTG Salvation Forums (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=34381)

Apparently the creators did their homework and had at least some clue about classical philosophy (if not magical theory).

[Saeiane]

I'd say so
games are based (usually- sometimes not fully) based in mythology, mythology is based in lore, which is based in magick.
Or something like that.
I haven't slept all night so the quality of my posts might be waning.
As is my will power
I need some friggin coffee.

moving on, interesting speculation in those forums.
I wish I had more to say than that. But my mind is about to shut down.
g'night.

[bakeneko]

G'dnight :)

(Yay, a substantial post :D )