Thread: Vision Quest/ Magick

Pnouthis, I do understand what you mean about lower magick becoming less important to you. I suppose what you are saying is the Universe flows with you naturally without any sort of 'specific' lower magick of your own to change things? This does make good sense.

When I was younger I had the glorified ideas. Now they are more realistic but I do aim high, no matter what the opposition. I truly wish to fulfill myself, or self-actualization, in the fullest sense of the term. By sex, I mean sex between two people. To me, true love with another person is MUCH more important than sex. Although to be single and happy is also beautiful. There are so many who cannot live life alone and still be happy/fulfilled. I still have many seeds in life to grow. Books I want to write, places I want to travel, people I want to meet, things I want to do, etc. First and foremost, at the present, education.

Good luck to you too in your military aspirations.

Originally Posted by Belasko

The word Vision Quest and Fire Walks make me cringe big time. I have a hard time with any labels, and as long as I have practiced magick, let us call it what it is going within, and vision quest reminds me of a Disney movie. Please excuse my cynicism but all this beating around the bush, and big words do not an occultist make.

I don't understand what it is about so many people in these forums: Why the need for these unnecessary personal jabs? So what if a term gives you a negative emotional reaction? Surely a more classy way of expressing your chagrin would be simply to explicate the inappropriateness of a term in summing up an interpretation of the relevant set of data. Surely I could object to the validity of the strong literalism that you propose for your phrase "going within," as it does employ a spatial metaphor in application to a--tenably--non- or merely quasi-spatial realm of experience (equally, one could say, "going without" with just as much validity). Moreover, it seems quite odd to me that you would enter into this discussion without addressing any of the multitude of points that have been made, or otherwise contributing something substantive to the topic; choosing, instead, to grab immediate attention for yourself by chastising the terminology employed by those contributors who have, obviously, been managing quite all right without your opinions.

Originally Posted by Sara D

Yes please cut out the gibberish and speak English. I understand where you are coming from Sir.

If this is directed towards me, then all I can do is apologize for what may appear to be my needlessly difficult prose style, and humbly ask for your patience. Please understand, however, that I write how I think; I can agree that "big words do not an occultist make," but nonetheless respond that intricate and highly descriptive argumentation, along with a matching prose style, does, at least in part, "a philosopher make." I have tried, in the past, to simpify my prose for the sake of making it more easily digestible. This project, however, could not be perpetuated to any length without causing a great deal of repressive interference to the fluency of my natural train of thought.

If you do glean something worthwhile in my posts but, understandably, cannot confidently settle on its interpretation, please feel free to ask me for a more developed explanation on any or all points--I promise that you will find me most obliging. If, on the other hand, you deem my posts to be, largely, a rubbage heap of pretentious Latinate words, a mere disguise for the fact that I do not have anything of value to say, you could just do what most would regard as the truly higher thing--realizing that your views could hardly be said to extend so far as to be the ultimate perspective--and simply pass by in silence . . .

Natasha:

Hmmm. I hope you didn't take my last post as some sort of cyber courtship, lol. The truth is, I get very little opportunity to explore my ideas on this, my most passionate subject of interest, which accumulate so tightly in my chest. My closest friends are skeptical, "rogue" intellectuals or else aspiring artists and writers; despite the commonality of interests I usually find the majority of my fellow occultists to be mere fantasy-prone dilettantes, hoping to discover in magic the type of worldly power that could be more efficiently sought in just coming to grips with reality and training in a lucrative profession. Your conversation, however, has been a breath of fresh air.

Don't get me wrong: I was simply using "sex" as an example for distinguishing between (see, even here, I was about to allude to Frege's distinction between "Sinne" and "Bedeutung"--see, all ye, my critics and judges!) . . . hmmm . . . the real-world, empirical content of a concept, and its relationships to anthropocentric values, purposes, associations, etc--as I said, I am not and do not care to be a moral univeralist; nor do I have any problem with sex that is understood, even from the inception of the seduction, not to result in any continued emotional attachment. My point was how theurgy has spiritualized my motivations, so that, now using sex as my example, I couldn't enchant for sex alone, with the intention of, say, feeling the bare sensory pleasure thereof; but it could be that some sort of meaning is actualized by me, say, going out to a bar one night, getting inebriated, and waking up the next morning in the arms of a 7 foot transsexual (no, it has never happened, and I pray, with a gasping laugh, that my sense of humor is spared such an opportunity!). I should, nonetheless, add here, that there self-deception for the sake of pushing my egoic agenda is futile: I cannot tell myself, say, "it's really not for sex alone." "Sex" does not have a salient meaning there, being merely a means for intantiation.

I wouldn't exactly say that the Universe flows with me naturally--though I would definitely be a more cheerful fellow if it did. What I mean is, that I do enchant, but the object for which I enchant, cannot, in and of itself, be a worldly event cut off from a certain sphere of internal meaning (I cannot choose the particulars of how that meaning is instantiated, but I must work to instantiate that meaning)--a sphere that is objective--not mine--very much like what I understand of the concept of True Will, except it is more cognitive than the word "will" would normally allow (and, if pushed, I could explain it in a way much clearer than Crowley's concept; though I cannot help it, that old degenerate will always be counted in my canon of saints.) Moreover, there seems to be a sort of "conspiracy" between external events and the inner content of this "sphere"--but the sphere is surely not "me" or "mine"; in fact, it used to feel like a burden better off repressed.

What are you studying at school? (Again, if you don't mind this question intrusive).

You do have quite an interesting way with words. I can relate about witches/magicians. I prefer the company of atheists or intellects. I find many magick types to drift off into fantasy rather than acknowledging realism, psychology, and science. I used to be this way until I took a very long tour through Atheism and Reason.

I keep my eyes open for people like you bears real intelligence. It may be faux pas, but do you have a Facebook?

I believe I understand what you are saying about lower magick and sex. You are saying there must be a higher meaning to the goal? Which is how I feel about "True Will". If the goal does not really aid me or True Will, then why bother?

Right now I am about to begin talking to admissions offices to BEGIN school. The past few years has been an adventure to 'find myself'. I am looking at majoring in Psychology and/or English. Eventually for a Masters or more. I love learning, reading, studying, etc. I've been studying/reading non-stop even without college. Recently I've been studying Evolutionary Biology and books by Carl Sagan. I think next I am going to take a tour back through Hermetics with a Stephen Flowers book.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your background/tradition of magickal practice? or if you want to take this into a private chat.

Please do me a favor Belasko, be constructive in criticism, and if you two are going to have a discussion on personal matters then please do it through emails and/or visitor messages. Let's keep the thread on topic please!

I'm beginning to think Belasko really is Sean Connery, lol, and I commend him for actually reading everything. I couldn't do it. I do like straightforward conversations on forums. When I have read five sentences and feel like I was just reading random words, I tend to give up. I'm smart, though. Really.

I have nothing to add to the actual subject of this thread, so I apologize, but I did find the thread entertaining somewhat.

I think it is when two people are having a genuine, honest, and peaceful conversation about magick yet are randomly criticized with very little constructive or positive intention that turns an otherwise positive forum experience into a negative experience. Things like this are what may give a forum a negative name.

As for flaunting anything. It was just an honest conversation in all seriousness. I'm confused as to the random irrational aggressiveness out of nowhere. Its discouraging to see another make a strong and solid judgment about me based on very little. I've done nothing to offend anyone in this forum.

You'll have to get use to this forum, it can be brutal, and some of the more advanced members can be downright aggressive.

I suppose so. It's been a long time since I have participated in a public forum. I'm not exactly novice myself, I just prefer to communicate in a positive manner instead of unnecessary aggressiveness. That is most certainly something my path has taught me.