online initiation why bother?

if i miss spell for give me,i have been seeing a few golden dawn online initiation class's i have been tempted to join them but have rejected them,i live in a city with a million people or more but kno lodges so if u have a lodge your blessed if your serious about the occult,i just think that online teachings from an occultic, ceremonial view such as the golden dawn would give little if any helpful information that the student could not obtain on his own considering this is the information age.i just think that to git the most out of those teachings it must be exspirenced in the flesh and not online.....and the reason why i say that is because "ISREAL REGARDIE" and our good buddy "ALIESTER CROWLEY 666" they both thought or wonted out rightly to do away with the elemental grades for the solo practioner for self initiation.isreal regardie stated all every 1 needed kno when he said(their is one student that iam thinking of and this student has proformed the watchtower ritual 50 to 60 times there for i consider her initiated.)now the reason he considerd her initiated is because by proforming the operation the practioner is embedding those symbols into ones aura on the astral those beings and spirits wont look at the wizard as alien but as a spiritual helper states regardie.

Hey there Kether,

I can relate to your skepticism about the validity or usefulness of merely online initiation.

I myself practice the Golden Dawn system with a single fellow practitioner in my area. We construct the physical symbols and implements of the order and do as you say perform the ceremonies "in the flesh" rather than on a virtual basis.

Personally, I do not accept the validity of so-called "astral initiation" in which the ceremony is simply performed "for" the candidate without their direct participation. Initiation must be an embodied experience in which the senses, emotions, thoughts, and astral faculties are all activated simultaneously to effect a lasting change in the body-mind of the candidate. Only through such an experience does one move beyond "candidate" to become an "initiate."

As an aside, Israel Regardie disagreed with Crowley that the Elemental Grades were unnecessary. He thought they were quite necessary, but that the individual could initiate him or herself through them through extensive contemplation work, study, and the creation of their own implements. This is my perspective as well.

Take care,
Adam

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Originally Posted by Isabeau

some of regardies works are not correct.

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The Watchtower Ceremony is based on the grade openings and the all important Portal Initiation of the Golden Dawn. The Portal Ceremony is a vital initiation in the Pathway of Light, in that it activates the "Spirit" energy, which must rule over the lower four elements. To have the lower four elements rule over Spirit, is represented by the adverse Pentagram. The upside down Pentagram is a Microcosmic symbol of evil, in that the lower self now rules over the Divine or Higher Self. In fact, part of the task in Portal, is to build the Pentagram within your sphere of sensation. When the Pentagram is single point upward, it is a powerful symbol of man stretched out before the Divine Essence. It is a symbol of the four lower elements within man, now being ruled by the Higher and Divine Essence. Spirit ruling over matter.............while some of his works may have contained error's or blinds like every one else's mr isreal regardie modifications are most certainly in my eyes practical for the solotary who wants to give it a dedicated shot

i think there are two issues at work here.

firstly i think it is possible for the self and lone initiated to be more in tune (whatever that means) than a person who physically underwent the process. (unlikely but not impossible) the idea being is that it is ther individuals response and depth of, commitment, openness, and impact of the event that really counts. that's just my opinion.

but also the question is why is the initiation desired. what does the candidate really want out of it? some of the things that may be desired from an initiation can only be got through personal contact, so one needs to consider what result they are hoping to achieve.

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Originally Posted by kether322

The Watchtower Ceremony is based on the grade openings and the all important Portal Initiation of the Golden Dawn.

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No it is not. The Watchtower Cermony is based on the Vault of the Adepti Consecration Ceremony, and only has the abbreviated Spirit Enochian Call taken from the Portal Ceremony. Thus it rehearses the symbology and forces of the 5=6 Grade of Adeptus Minor.

In my opinion the Watchtower Ceremony doesn't initiate you into the Outer Order Elemental Grades but to the level of Adeptus Minor. Performing it you will skip the necessary and important Outer Order initiatory process. You will have to use other Rituals for that.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Watchtower has NOTHING to do with ceremonial magic. This is a process begun by the Golden Dawnand extended by wicca practices: a modern creation which has no true merit in ancient magc at all. If the Golden Dawn is what you want, go for it and the best of luck. I have studied it, researched it and laid it side by side with older practices and found it more to do with the imaginative powers than powers of the actual will - which is the driving force behind magic itself. Initiation 'online'? seriously?? One forgets that initiation is not only a spiritual course, but a physical one as well. How can you put yourself out in the wilderness fasting, away from all human contact, yet still carry around a laptop? Becoming initiated is a lot to do with self discovery and purification as well... what the hell does that have to do with doing Watchtower rituals over and over? NOTHING!
Sorry to say, but that guy sounds like a fool, and not in a good learning way either. A high priest or priestess is a spiritual servant to those they serve, true. But a magus is niether of these. A magus does have a responsibillity to those who need help, but is not indepted to initiate anyone just because they want it. As magus, we teach and initiate those we are led to, not the other way around. Embedding symbols has more to do with reiki than ceremonial magic. It is not a common or neccessary in ceremonial magic. In fact, it can be used to trap you as well if done in that process. There is 'Spiritual Armor' processes, but this is no mere embedding of symbols. It's much deeper and grows with you. We grow as magicians, why embed something in us that we will eventually grow beyond and past? Again, none of this makes any sense. Only New Age could have come up with so many backwards ideas. The idea that a little of everything is a good safe measure is both innacurate and ignorant of the traditions that have existed for thousands of years. Sorry if I come across being negative, but how would you feel if you read a bunch of lies that was being taught as fact about something you'd dedicated your life to? Do yourself a really big favor. Find someone who actually knows what they're talking about to teach you.. someone who does not rely on wiccapedia for everything they know or the internet for that matter. Find yourself a nice old school practitioner to teach you. You'll find that those types are less likely to turn you down and will teach you things the New Age folks thinks is too hard to accomplish. Best of luck to you.
BalanceDragon

Having been baptized I can see why initiation would be an important achievement. I also see why doing it yourself is off. Ceremonies are powerful experiences for people. Even something silly like blowing out candles on a birthday cake have meaning.

Many do not like to limit their experiences. There is little room for ceremony in astral magic. The only verifiable cremony I have found that was indeed ancient was an Egyptian one, but it's desciptions do not match that which is generally refered to by new age as 'astral' magic. It's more intensive. The closest I have found to modern thought on this that is ancient is found within shamanic practices, but even these have been weakened down by modern writers. Some material is acquirable out there, but one must often go to shamans found in 3rd world countries for this and their classification of what a shaman is, does and goes through does not match that which new age shamans teach. Good luck with your practices.

Sorry to post one right after another, but I was distracted from my train of thought when the discussion went in the direction of astral magic. My problem with 'online initiations' is the fact that finding your teacher/master to be initiated is a journey within itself - taking that physical journey allows you encounter spiritual influences at work around you in your physical life, it also strengthens one's dedication in their path. Besides, a teacher that cannot be present in their students life is no teacher. Too many would be students prefer to take the easiest way out, and this does little for strength and discipline needed to seriously pursue ceremonial magic. How dedicated does one have to be to turn on your computer? Not much.
It is true that the internet has provided us with a seemingly limitless supply of magical thought and resources, however it has also provided us with a lot misperceptions about magic and even outright lies.
For instance, did you know that in his entire life John Dee only ever witnessed or saw ONE SPIRIT with his own eyes? The spirit was Uriel. The others were 'seen' for him, and the man who supposedly saw these spirits was a known confidence man and thief named Edward Kelly, who would describe the spirits to him and what they 'told' him. This is one major reason I do not trust Enochian magic. I have watched it performed by those doing Golden Dawn rites, and those practicing under the OTO, and not once have I experienced anything those who described it back to me have claimed. This in my mind is self delusion. I have witnessed and participated many ceremonies of other types of magic and have witnessed or co-witnessed strange things appear or take place - so then why not Enochian? Not only were the goals they had NOT accomplished, but the guarded few who insisted that there had been accomplishments could not prove it, nor could any besides themselves correlate they had indeed occured. I do not say that this means Enochian magic is fake, but that I personally hold it in high suspect along with one or two other genres of magic that still have yet to bear fruit in any real witnessable way. When real magic is wrought, everyone present can feel it, see it, or witness the end result or affect of it. This is what makes it 'real'. Thanks for you patience, and good luck with all your endeavors,
BalanceDragon