LaVey Rituals

hey guys,

so this is a problem that has been bugging me while i have been looking into LaVey's teachings.

I think what i have a weird problem is, if satan is just a symbol, why do L'satanist's do rituals calling on Satan, belial, leviathan, lucifer?

if its just for theatrics, why bother?

what bothers me, is if L'satanist's don't believe in Satan as a force/being, why bother wasting time doing rituals for something that doesn't exist.

being a former christian, brought up with it also. If seems funny to me, knowing about Revelations etc, that this isn't just a ploy to get people to join up with a real Satan entity so we can get bummed in hell for the rest of eternity, masking these Rituals as "theatrical" to get people to do it.

I've seen and read a lot about LaVey and people in the church of satan, that i'm confused on what is believed.

watching an interview with, Zeena Lavey and Schreck, where stated that helping people is pointless and stupid, yet they will do a ritual to destroy a person?? wouldn't it be better to help someone than it would be to waste time doing a "fake" ritual.

As well.. with these Rituals etc, do they actually work? is their actual Magic? or is that just another theatrical thing to do?

a lot of confusion for me :(

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Originally Posted by Isabeau

why indeed? it is in the mind. how ironic yes?

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at least i'm not the only one.

i feel like L'satanism, is so right for me, yet this whole ritual thing puts me off

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Originally Posted by Octavia156

Hi BigBallons

You are right to highlight that LS is theatrical at its heart.

In answer to your question - yes it 'works' by using the theatrics to 'shock' you out of your Christian/theistic imprinting. THIS iconoclastic comedy designed to undo Catholic thinking is the only magic that is taking place in these rituals.

If you are not a Christian and/or have already shaken off superstition then no, there is no Magic in L'Satanic ritual, and it is 'just another theatrical thing to do'.

LeVey was not a magician - he was an entertainer on a mission to convert Christians into Atheists.

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Ok so technically, you don't have to actually involve yourself in the ritual side of L'satanism?

then isn't that just Atheism? with some hints of, what to and not to do?

I would like to share this, and hopefully giving a seed of thought, and motivativation for exploring this path a little closer, by reading a bit more, about the subject, etc..

There is often confusion about what Anton LaVey believed when he established the Church of Satan in 1966. Anyone who accepts the Gilmore-Barton party-line that the Church of Satan is an 'atheist' organization should take a serious look at Michael Aquino's book The Church of Satan which chronicals the COS from the year1969 thru1975.

In various letters and documents it is shown that Anton LaVey clearly accepted the literal existence of Satan. It was only after 1975 (and his disavowal at that time of Satan and his priesthood) that he began to deny the literal existence of Satan. It was the corruption of the priesthood via the sale of titles and ordinations which resulted in the resignation of the entire priesthood of Satan and the formation of the Temple of Set.

In his book The Satanic Rituals, Anton LaVey mentioned various groups which existed prior to the formation of the Church of Satan (the Knights Templar, the Yezidee, the Illuminati) and describes them each as 'Satanic.' From this it should be seen that Satanism encompasses a variety of beliefs which are not necessarily compatible when taken at face value. Neither the Yezidee nor the Knights Templar would agree with the Church of Satan in its views, but both are described by LaVey as actual Satanists.

I have the answer for you, bigballons...

LaVey had to make the people believe that he does not believe in the Devil as a real entity but as a symbol, so he can fool and deceive the masses. He knew the Devil is the Father of All Lies (as Jesus calls Him), that's why he made Satanism an official religion using a lie... That they don't worship Satan, but instead they believe in Him as a symbol.

However, it's obvious that he was just telling this but did not follow it, that's why he invoked demons, made rituals in the Devil's name and many more. With this, someone would believe that LaVey was a Theistic Satanist. No... Theistic Satanists have their own beliefs about the Devil and do not believe in the Bible.

LaVey believed in both God and Satan of the Bible and was worshiping Satan (I can prove it if you want).

We see that LaVey was actually a Diabolist with a special ideology. I guess he had never read any old Diabolic scriptures or... He had his own reasons to believe not to them.

Maybe the term "LaVeyan Satanism" should stop to exist... Because LaVey was not a LaVeyan Satanist.

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Originally Posted by Kain

I have the answer for you, bigballons...

LaVey had to make the people believe that he does not believe in the Devil as a real entity but as a symbol, so he can fool and deceive the masses. He knew the Devil is the Father of All Lies (as Jesus calls Him), that's why he made Satanism an official religion using a lie... That they don't worship Satan, but instead they believe in Him as a symbol.

However, it's obvious that he was just telling this but did not follow it, that's why he invoked demons, made rituals in the Devil's name and many more. With this, someone would believe that LaVey was a Theistic Satanist. No... Theistic Satanists have their own beliefs about the Devil and do not believe in the Bible.

LaVey believed in both God and Satan of the Bible and was worshiping Satan (I can prove it if you want).

We see that LaVey was actually a Diabolist with a special ideology. I guess he had never read any old Diabolic scriptures or... He had his own reasons to believe not to them.

Maybe the term "LaVeyan Satanism" should stop to exist... Because LaVey was not a LaVeyan Satanist.

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Wow, how some have a talent in twisting things or lets say a way of seeing things differently from others ..lol..
Yes, we all are unique in the way we see things, that's been proven once again...!

this is a mine field...

i don't believe in a literal heaven and hell... but now some say LaVey did, which would make TSB debunked.

Don't you think that the term "LaVeyan Satanism" is wrong since LaVey was not a LaVeyan? (I guess you don't want me to prove it... Nobody asked me to)

Guess what... Ideologically you are only atheists, not Satanists... And since not even LaVey believed in these teachings... You are still atheists and nothing more.

Look at this video:

YouTube - RD15 - Laveyan vs. Theistic Satanist

- Well, you should know that Satanism is about rejecting the ideas of religion, the belief in God and the imposed morality as it applies to sexual conventions.
- That's called atheism, you retard.
- But I'm not an atheist! I'm a Satanist!
- Okay, let me put it in another way... Do you believe in God?
- No.
- Then you are an atheist.
- No! I'm a Satanist because I reject the religious belief in God!
- I don't think you have a very real grasp on the English language.

First, they are not atheistic Satanists, they are just atheists.

And... secondly, the fact that although we know there is Something that created the universe and this Something had to put some rules to It's creations or else they would destroy themselves soonner or later, so It certainly appeared to us and It's obviously one of the many Gods people believe in... This does not mean Christians are ignorant because they believe in Something and you deny to believe because you are weak anarchists who don't wanna commit to any rules that will make themselves and the whole society better.

No-thing calculated distances and created everything so wisely? Didn't you know already that the One who created the universe has to be wise in order to do that? I know you know that, you just don't want to admit it because you are an anarchist just like every atheist and you are unable to follow just any rules that will make your life and the world you live in better.

Kain, if you are so convinced about everything and know within yourself, this to be true (what you are trying to relay, to us here), then why are you here on this occultforum...
It seems your journey is complete, with the knowledge you have. What is the point then at all of this..
From what I've understood, Occultism is a form or a journey of self discovery, that is like an internal drive of wanting to know more , wisdom or enlightenement....but there needs to be a more open 'Me' or mind 'Ego' driven by the 'Self' or Will, to discover other paths , to make ones own and a deeper allrounded understanding , not just about christianity...

However , again , it seems your path is complete...

Yes but think... If there is not a High Judge then I can kill someone and not get caught by the police.

Think, Hitler killed so many innocent people and got away with it by commiting suicide. Does this mean he didn't face judgement?

Atheism's teachings are that there is no Higher Judgement so you can do whatever you want as long as you are not caught by the police.

It's like saying "If you are smart enough to kill without getting caught then that's alright... you can do it".

We Christians believe that killing is wrong because only God who created us has the right to take our lives. Nobody else. Atheists always claim that they should not kill but they don't describe why. I mean, if you think killing is not a sin then why wouldn't you do it?

And about repentance and forgiveness. Yes, we Christians have this "luxury" because everybody should have a second chance and God gives second chances. You must know that there is nobody who is going to say "I will kill now and then I will repent and ask forgiveness from the God.".

The one who does something wrong just has the right to have a second chance if he really wouldn't do the same mistake again and he knows it was a mistake.

And who told you that religion does not bring peace. It also brings war because some people think that "love the other person" that Jesus said means "love the other person only if he agrees with you.".

This does not mean that Jesus really said "love the other person only if he agrees with you".

"We people"? So you are an atheist now or what? I don't get it why everyone who claims to be a Satanist / Paganist has always to be a lawyer for the atheists.

I just said that if you don't believe in God you have no reason to believe that you don't have to do a bad deed and I gave as an example the murder.

So, first you must be at least immature in order to be sure that there is no God up there and everything was created alone. The fact that you found some evidence that the God of the Bible (for example) does not exist, doesn't mean God does not exist at all. After all, the evidence you may have found are questioned by me and all the theists (not necessarily Christians).

Secondly, if you are sure there is no Creator then what holds you from killing? (except jail)

What holds you from lying?

What holds you from taking the other person's wife?

What holds you from stealing something? (except jail again)

I know religion not always can hold you, there are religious people that do all these things but in fact... they know they are not good humans (and Christians) in front of God and they will pay for it when they die. The one who repents is the one who deserves a second chance because nobody kills someone thinking that he will repent later and everything will be alright.

Jesus came to earth for many reasons. One of these reasons was to make people understand that some things in the Old Testament were not so correct and maybe they were added later for some reasons.

What I am trying to say is... Why do we argue about that? Is there a doubt that Jesus (Who is the representation of the God) was against all the evil deeds Christians have done through the centuries.

And something I wanna add... We don't know about the murders of the Satanists. The fact is that since they believe it's a sin not to follow the Satanic Calendar, each Satanic brotherhood kills a human each month. Just think how many people they may have killed these 2000+ years they exist.

(We don't know the exact date their Bible was written.)

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Originally Posted by Kain

We Christians believe that killing is wrong because only God who created us has the right to take our lives. Nobody else. Atheists always claim that they should not kill but they don't describe why. I mean, if you think killing is not a sin then why wouldn't you do it?

And about repentance and forgiveness. Yes, we Christians have this "luxury" because everybody should have a second chance and God gives second chances. You must know that there is nobody who is going to say "I will kill now and then I will repent and ask forgiveness from the God.".

The one who does something wrong just has the right to have a second chance if he really wouldn't do the same mistake again and he knows it was a mistake.

And who told you that religion does not bring peace. It also brings war because some people think that "love the other person" that Jesus said means "love the other person only if he agrees with you.".

This does not mean that Jesus really said "love the other person only if he agrees with you".

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The problem with religion, both esoteric beliefs and more mainstream beliefs, is that they are based on dogma. Dogma leaves no room for argument or interpretation. There is no discussion and no reasoning. You are correct in that it is a person's interpretation that causes terrible things to be done in the name of the Christian faith, but the structure of the faith means that once that person has a following then they cannot be questioned and neither can their beliefs which in turn leads to more atrocity. Faith is the problem with religion.

As for your very narrowly construed question about killing, lying, sleeping around, and stealing I don't think it is fair to exclude the legal ramifications. If you were honest with yourself I bet that the very real physical consequences of those actions are the primary motivator for not doing them as opposed to the eternal consequences ascribed to them by your faith. Also it should be pointed out that almost every civilization that has ever existed on this planet has agreed as a matter of social structure that stealing, killing, lying, and screwing your neighbor's wife are bad things. That moral code is not unique to Christianity. In fact the Code of Hammurabi, which predates the Abrahamic faiths by centuries, pretty much says that all that is legally wrong and says it without the benefit of having God dictate it to man.

I feel so fortunate that I never had to endure a chirstian upbringing...The most confused and unhappy people I have ever met, has been practising christians . I do feel sorry and empathy for them...

The damage is horrible, to some people I know, that are severely traumatised and years later work hard on: changing their fears, contious guilt for what ever they do, severe depression, etc..
It's not pretty to watch and hear their stories and the total confusion, what is wrong and right, as they can't seem to work out those things for themselves, since for years they've been told, what to do, by other people in the church and of course the overshadowing ( imaginery, man on the cloud) 'God' in the back ground, what ever they do....

Damage, Trauma and unhappy people, that's what I nowdays see that religion causing...

But hey Kain, if it works for you, great for you...I just don't think people will here somehow agree, as most are more aware of things, than the avarage person on the street and I think there are far better books to read than the confusing bible that has be re-written and changed so many times, that the question becomes : - what actually am I reading here anyway, what's the real deal...
And then just swtching to something else, that rings more true and actually makes sense in the bigger picture...

can we keep this on what the actual topic is...

if the rituals in LaVey are valid or not...

I don't think I should discuss this any more.

Maybe I am going to open a topic about Christianity so you will see what is the purpose behind it.

NOTE: Christianity and the Christian church are two completely different things.

Last, I wanna say that we know that everyone sins.

Christian sin too.

However they are hyprocrites if they ask forgiveness for a sin they know they will do again purposly.

I have sinned many times too, but I ask forgiveness only if I know I won't commit the same sin again (purposly).

If I know I will, then I ask no forgiveness because if I do it means I don't mean it and that I don't really care if God will forgive me.

All people are sinners and the fact that I am a Christian does not mean I am superior than the people that sin.

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Originally Posted by Isabeau

Fear. :D

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Classic... :)

Lavey explains in the satanic bible while he does this.
It is because people have the need for Dogma. Otherwise this religion would be called ''atheism'' or ''humanism''... The First Church of Satan had a quote that ''The human mind is too irrational for atheism to be a working religion''.
Even science has reached elements of mystery that can't be solved.

They are symbols. Satan represents the part of our being that is defiant of all that stops us from being the God within.
Lucifer represents our intellect which is above that of all species on this planet.
Belial represents the part of our mind that allows us to stand on our own feet
independently.
Leviathan is the mystery and depth of the spell.. the forces at work.

It is all in the mind. But your thoughts are real, even if they are not what
you are sensing with all of your senses. So in this case the rituals are
more like ''psychodrama''. The theatrics helping to empower us as they would
do in therapy.

The preference to help people is really all of one's own. I think the reason why they wouldn't go and help people is because of the fact of how satanism encourages you to take steps towards power... not to rely on others.

First, as I said LaVey was not an atheist.

He was a Diabolist (with his own rules, separate from the Diabolic brotherhoods but still a Diabolist)

So you don't have to take seriously what he says.

He doesn't do it just because "humans need to believe in something and cannot accept atheism", he did it because he really believed in what he was doing.

Now...

Which Satan represents "the part of our being that is defiant of all that stops us from being the God within"?

How do you make this conclusion that Satan represents that?

And please don't tell me that Satan told you so... (because I've heard that too)

Then how do you make the conclusion that Belial "represents the part of our mind that allows us to stand on our own feet independently"?

So... You are saying that you are practicing magic for psychological help but you don't believe in it?

Only Satanists have done that... Taking things that we believe for years now and making them however they like them without saying why...

For example, theistic Satanists believe that Satan is good... But don't say what is their source... where they found that Satan is good.

Of course we have organizations like JoS that claim that Satan told them so and take wise phrases from books claiming the demons told them in personal conversations they had after summoning them...


Ha! And, of course people cannot accept atheism as a religion since atheism is not a religion, but the non-existance of religion.

Kain. I don't know what parallel universe you are from.

Lavey was never a diabolist. I've studied his biography.
The foundation of Lavey Satanism is the worship of The Self. Except Lavey Satanism is also a very ''here and now'' philosophy so they only worship the psyche and flesh. They don't worship any soul. Furthermore, they don't have any specific moral code.

Here is a link to wikipedia's summarization of the satanic bible:
The Satanic Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the beginning of each ''book'' in the satanic bible, it states what each of the crown princes represent. They don't show this in Wikipedia but I'm sure if you go to any bookstore in any city, they normally have a paranormal section where they have a copy of the satanic bible so you can look for yourself. Actually, I have a PDF if you need me to go get it and send it to you.

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/black...y/texts/sb.pdf

Here you go. I did it for you.

Theistic Satanism never says anywhere that Satan is Good. Wanna know why? Because they don't really believe in any moral code either. They follow their own codes.

The problem is people like you who twist **** in order to profit while the masses are left with nothing.

I don't like the JoS, they told old secrets and are saying it all comes from some ancient form of satan worship which never existed. All of the forms of satanism are new but it doesn't make it invalid. However, I don't like when a philosophy or religion claims that this is ''theirs'' when it was obviously someone else's.... this shows the organization is lying and who knows what ends they will try to gain for their own profit.

Frankly, Kain, as for the twisting and stuff... it isn't twisting the knowledge it is seeing it from one's own perspective. Christians will claim that being homosexual is a choice and that it is evil - but ask any homosexual and they will tell you they can't get erect from a vagina or maintain an erection, unless they are of course intoxicated and haven't gotten off in days.

Christianity is a religion that has power because it defines what is good and what is evil. Thus controlling human character. And guess who told them? God did. So I don't see why you are putting people down for talking to Satan when God was talking to the prophets and told them what to write down. Jesus - a Man - was telling them what to write down. How does this make it more valid? Have you ever read the book of luke without the concept of Jesus being God? It shows him in a very negative light...

Even Jesus, being this good guy who died on the cross so we didn't have to perform sacrifices and blah blah blah... even he says that ''For those who don't believe that I am king over them, bring them before me and kill them''.
That is in Luke.

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Originally Posted by devakxes

Kain. I don't know what parallel universe you are from.

Lavey was never a diabolist. I've studied his biography.
The foundation of Lavey Satanism is the worship of The Self. Except Lavey Satanism is also a very ''here and now'' philosophy so they only worship the psyche and flesh. They don't worship any soul. Furthermore, they don't have any specific moral code.

Here is a link to wikipedia's summarization of the satanic bible:
The Satanic Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the beginning of each ''book'' in the satanic bible, it states what each of the crown princes represent. They don't show this in Wikipedia but I'm sure if you go to any bookstore in any city, they normally have a paranormal section where they have a copy of the satanic bible so you can look for yourself. Actually, I have a PDF if you need me to go get it and send it to you.

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/black...y/texts/sb.pdf

Here you go. I did it for you.

Theistic Satanism never says anywhere that Satan is Good. Wanna know why? Because they don't really believe in any moral code either. They follow their own codes.

The problem is people like you who twist **** in order to profit while the masses are left with nothing.

I don't like the JoS, they told old secrets and are saying it all comes from some ancient form of satan worship which never existed. All of the forms of satanism are new but it doesn't make it invalid. However, I don't like when a philosophy or religion claims that this is ''theirs'' when it was obviously someone else's.... this shows the organization is lying and who knows what ends they will try to gain for their own profit.

Frankly, Kain, as for the twisting and stuff... it isn't twisting the knowledge it is seeing it from one's own perspective. Christians will claim that being homosexual is a choice and that it is evil - but ask any homosexual and they will tell you they can't get erect from a vagina or maintain an erection, unless they are of course intoxicated and haven't gotten off in days.

Christianity is a religion that has power because it defines what is good and what is evil. Thus controlling human character. And guess who told them? God did. So I don't see why you are putting people down for talking to Satan when God was talking to the prophets and told them what to write down. Jesus - a Man - was telling them what to write down. How does this make it more valid? Have you ever read the book of luke without the concept of Jesus being God? It shows him in a very negative light...

Even Jesus, being this good guy who died on the cross so we didn't have to perform sacrifices and blah blah blah... even he says that ''For those who don't believe that I am king over them, bring them before me and kill them''.
That is in Luke.

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First, you should know that the last part in Luke is a parable...

Secondly, prophets and stuff like that were chosen by God, but these "Satanists" claim that they summon Satan and He speaks to them whenever they want...

And then they say things like "Darkness is light turned inside out" that they read from books and they claim that Beelzebub, Satan etc. told them in a secret conversation they had.

They think demons and Satan speak like humans... Are you telling me that people like that are serious?

And you said Satanism is new as a religion. That's not true. Sorry to disapoint you but only atheism with the name "Satanism" is new.

People who claim they can have secret conversations with the demons like they are their friends whenever they want are also new.

Now, about that... Theistic Satanists believe that Satan is Good since they think He has a good purpose (according to them).

His purpose is supposed to be peace and things like that. Right?

Have you ever seen Diane Vera speaking about war? Of course not.


Now, about homosexuals.

I know people who support atheism and pseudo-satanism have no honour and don't care if they bring shame to themselves by being homosexuals...

Your source about Satan is LaVey... You say "Satan represents that" "Belial represents that" and all these are according to LaVey.

So tell me, where did LaVey find what Satan represents? The fact that he is a popular "Satanist" does not mean his claims are not to be questioned. So what's his source? Where did he find that Satan and Belial represent this that he claims they represent?


You know that all these things Christianity says are evil, you know they are actually evil. You know it's bad to take someone's wife... you know it's bad to harm the other person... you know it's bad to lie... you know hate and anger is bad. So what's your problem? It's just that Christianity says that we must not do all these things without expecting us to do everything. Christianity says how we should be so we can try to become like we should be but we know we can't and only Jesus could have no sins.



I let for the ending this about LaVey... Time to prove he was a Diabolist.

Let's see...

So first, some proofs that he believed in a literal Devil...

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Those that knew LaVey very well in the past, such as Ed Webber, who got together with LaVey as close friends and thought out the idea of making a Satanic church, insist that he definitely did believe in a literal Devil, a real Satan, and that it was absolutely fundamental and basic to all communications and interactions with him, as-given, that he did believe in the Devil, literally.

Michael Aquino also affirms this and he was the second highest ranking member in LaVey's organization for a long time. However, due to Aquino's split with LaVey in 1975, the later followers of LaVey try to downplay anything he has to say or anything in writing he can show.

LaVey's later Priesthood, primarily the Gilmores, insist that Anton Lavey was always a staunch atheist and they claim that even the making of the movie "Satanis" was a big joke. Of course, they themselves are also staunch atheists! (When LaVey died he left his organization to his daughter Karla and to his son Xerxes, to be held for him by Blanche Barton until Xerxes became 18 years of age. There was a bitter court battle not long after. As of now, the Gilmores are the HPs of the organization. Karla has her own organization.)

All of what anyone else can testify to would be hearsay and second hand unless they had it in writing from LaVey himself.

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Now it's time to prove he was a Diabolist...

Murderer Richard Ramirez who believed that he will go to Hell next to Jack the Ripper (who is recently proven that he was a Satanist) if he kills, was deceived by Anton LaVey.

LaVey's right hand, Michael Aquino and the founder of the Church of Set, had a tattoo of "666" on his forehead (just like Revelation says that people will have the mark of the beast on their forheads).

Michael Aquino again, in Oprah Winfrey claimed that Satan was the angel of God who rebelled against Him and that even the supporters of the New Age believe in the Biblical Devil.

Also, LaVey didn't say why you shouldn't sacrifice. He just said you shouldn't do it just because it is forbidden by the law. If I was sacrificing I would say exactly the same thing publicly.

Susan Atkins in the court claimed that LaVey told her that he believes in the God of the Bible but he chooses to follow the Devil of the Bible instead.

Charles Manson was also in the age of LaVey.

Diane Vera views Satan as a force that is intricately connected to the physical. She doesn't believe in an afterlife. She also thinks that people chose deities based on their energetic harmony with them... so others who have an energetic ''allergy'' to Satan are typically christians.

Really? A parable? Explain.

The first instance of Satanism was around the 1200s. So no, Satanism isn't as old as many claim.

They claim they summon satan and he comes in the flesh. Now many theistic satanists will summon satan, maybe not in the same manner as a pagan would summon a deity, but it would manifest as a presence in the room and a particular energy. Telepathically a person could talk to them. Deities have been known to chosen people, look at hinduism. All of their stuff is supposed to be from the mouth of a god or goddess.

In my mind, all things are meant to be questioned. I'm not saying that ''satan represents this'' and ''belial represents that'' because I believe in it. I'm stating it because that is what the satanic bible says.

I'm just going to overlook the concept of what you said about homosexuals.

So let me take an idea of christianity and show it in a different light. It is bad to get a divorce, but what if the wife was being severely beaten by the husband everyday? Does she not have the right to be happy and live? To leave the husband? Morality is relative. In Islam they say it is okay to have multiple wives, even slaves. In christianity, everyone is made in the image of God and so to enslave a person is wrong. There are people who are good and yet don't have any belief in God.

Many other ideas abound that Jack the Ripper was a Free-Mason. There is no SOLID evidence that he is a satanist. Let alone a diabolist. As for Richard Ramirez, he also claimed the Nazis poisoned his blood with something underneath his soap dish and that was the reason why he had to drink blood. I'm sure he also spoke about Lavey and a bunch of other things since he also spoke about how he spoke to aliens who came from outer space in order to give him a ray gun that he could use against the nazis.

Michael Aquino views Satan to be the actual god Set, who is actually the principle of Isolate Consciousness. A principle of reality is not the biblical devil who is an entity. In The Temple of Set, they believe everything results to being archetypes and something of the mind... because they relate to the Kybalion.

Charles Manson and Susan Atkins tripped LSD everyday. I'm sure they had visions of Satan when Charles Manson was claiming to be an angel sent from God to kill all the black people hiding in Death Valley in a hole somewhere which to him meant ''the bottomless pit''.

Finally with Lavey and sacrifice. He actually says it is better to go and make a symbolic sacrifice of the person via a destruction ritual. That is in the book of belial. You are correct though, he doesn't condone or negate the concept of sacrificing a person. He says it is in the people's best interest to follow the law of the country they live in, though. He also says that satanism is a religion that honors life.

I'm not a lavey satanist or an atheist btw. I'm a luciferian.
In my mind, it is right to question everything. I don't make accusations when there is no facts. I'm not saying christianity is a wrong religion... for some it is their ideal, just not mine. I just don't like it when others mislead people or go and try to tell others how to live their life.

Kain, for this thread, to make sense and people being able to answear your questions constructively, it might be a good idea for you to read a bit more , as it seems you make asumtions on things you have very limited information about...

There are excellent books out there, that could help you, to maybe put the questions in a more constructive way, as it seems some are getting frustrated from the limited information you seem to know of.

There are books for examples about the brain and how it works regarding emotions, imagination, etc....this might help you to understand a bit more about Magick and the concept of rituals, as well.

It might even answear most of the questions you've come with , as the answears, that currently don't seem to make sense to you, could actually click later after reading a bit more.

Okay, I find all these things about the 1000 kinds of Satanism stupid because I don't know much and I should read...

I will then some time...

By the way, A-theism in English is translated like "No-Godism".

Did you forget that God is the religion?

Without a God we have no religion either.

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Originally Posted by Soddex

You can begin with the most common ones and then specialize and get deeper into the different paths.

So Buddhism is not a religion?

I guess I am one of the persons which cant stand your lack of knowledge. It seems to me as you only are trying to argue for your faith like any fundamentalist and not truly are seeking answers.

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So true and I find it sad , as Kain you are the one, missing out on the amazing world of knowledge ( my subjective preception of course, being a Luciferian ). However , I can not say what you would define as missing out on, you might be perfectly happy in your reality, after all and that's good for you , but as we respect your belief/ faith in whatever, so too one would hope, you could possibly extend that respect to others here as well, presenting your views maybe in a more understading way, by reading on topics that might help you understad the basics on these subjects.

I could not imagine anyone here, that would go to a christian forum and well, blasting everyone with whatever lefthand knowledge one has, subjective preceptions on christianity, etc...

I can imagine someone going into a christian forum, to learn and understand the christian views on things...

However, it seems to me that there are enough people here that could answear those questions, as they have come from backgrounds, with vast knowledge on the subject...well, enough knowledge to me in anycase, as I'm not very interested in the subject anyway, sorry don't mean to put it down, I just have never been drawn to it .

I'm not going to continue arguing but you see it's 4 morning in here and I am not in a mood to write big texts in a forum.

I am just going to say... Light, did you say that I shouldn't be here telling my beliefs and my opinions about religions most of you believe in just because I am a Christian?

So you say Christianity actually has nothing to do with Occult.

Well, let me remind you that many popular occultists were Christians, like Eliphas Levi, the Key of Solomon was also Christianic. And there is also the Christian Magick, which is based on this, the Key of Solomon that most magicians use as a source.

So how can you say that I shouldn't say my beliefs in an occult forum just because I'm a Christian?

Well, it seems you again misunderstood, that can also be put into, choosing to understand or not , but again that might be a concept that is not familiar to you , so I think I will choose pull away from this, as you seem to have worked out everything anyway for yourself...

I think if this continues I will be making a complaint.

Personally, I don't give a **** why he's trying to force his beliefs on us. I just want it to stop. I also agree that he needs more education in terms of what satanism is and isn't... the different branches of it... as well as other religions in general. I think it is probably difficult being around learned minds and then being taught he is not looking into something deeper. I think that he's also just trying to irk us.

''Seek your own truth - not create your own delusion.'' This is why when you say that diabolism is such a big global conspiracy I get pissed off. It is a delusion. There are places in the world where the word ''diabolism'' or even ''satanism'' is like speaking about ''sunyata'' and the difference between various different states of Nirvana in the west. I will make right every wrong accusation.

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However the more practical way at look at demons is that they are parts of the mind of you(God) that need to be turned to the light.

One of the Highest rituals of Ceremonial Magick involves the complete evocation of the entire 72 demons of Hell, with the specific intention of turning them to the light.

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- The operation of Abramelin The Mage. I thought about doing this but I don't want to leave a place being haunted by demons like Crowley did.

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Well this is a problem, because most magicians believe nothing is true, everything is permitted. The Map is not the Territory
But yes you've hit the nail on the head comparing it psychology..

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I think Magick is an art and science that works on multiple levels of understanding... the mind, spirit, and the energy that flows through the flesh and material realm...as well as working with certain universal principles depending on the kind of magick.

Belial standing on his own two feet upon the earth... I wish I could remember what book it talks about this. I think it was the zohar.. Lavey also took his name ''Worthless''... and saw that it was synonymous with ''One without a Master''. That is, the name Belial.

Chorozon to me is more of ''isolate consciousness'' to me than standing independently... the latter simply means you can act on your own impulses, rhythms, desires, thoughts etc. even if others are influencing you.

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Originally Posted by bigballons

hey guys,

so this is a problem that has been bugging me while i have been looking into LaVey's teachings.

I think what i have a weird problem is, if satan is just a symbol, why do L'satanist's do rituals calling on Satan, belial, leviathan, lucifer?

if its just for theatrics, why bother?

what bothers me, is if L'satanist's don't believe in Satan as a force/being, why bother wasting time doing rituals for something that doesn't exist.

being a former christian, brought up with it also. If seems funny to me, knowing about Revelations etc, that this isn't just a ploy to get people to join up with a real Satan entity so we can get bummed in hell for the rest of eternity, masking these Rituals as "theatrical" to get people to do it.

I've seen and read a lot about LaVey and people in the church of satan, that i'm confused on what is believed.

watching an interview with, Zeena Lavey and Schreck, where stated that helping people is pointless and stupid, yet they will do a ritual to destroy a person?? wouldn't it be better to help someone than it would be to waste time doing a "fake" ritual.

As well.. with these Rituals etc, do they actually work? is their actual Magic? or is that just another theatrical thing to do?

a lot of confusion for me :(

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LOL LaVey was a con, nothing more, he stole other ideas from friedrich nietzsche's philosophies, kinda like what the chrsitians did, stole ideas and concepts from other beliefs and calmed it as their own.so in a way he mocked christianity.

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Originally Posted by satnistoner420

LOL LaVey was a con, nothing more, he stole other ideas from friedrich nietzsche's philosophies, kinda like what the chrsitians did, stole ideas and concepts from other beliefs and calmed it as their own.so in a way he mocked christianity.

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True. I identified myself as a LaVeyan Satanist when I was a little kid because i read his book and agreed with the ''be your own God'' philosophy. But once I actually examined the ''religion'' a bit closer I saw laVey's hypocrisy and that the Church of Satan is no more then a money making scheme.

He charged $200 to join his cult. A real satanist wouldn't feel the need to pay such an outrages price just for the sake of being a part of something

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Originally Posted by Kain

Only Satanists have done that... Taking things that we believe for years now and making them however they like them without saying why...

For example, theistic Satanists believe that Satan is good... But don't say what is their source... where they found that Satan is good.

Of course we have organizations like JoS that claim that Satan told them so and take wise phrases from books claiming the demons told them in personal conversations they had after summoning them...


Ha! And, of course people cannot accept atheism as a religion since atheism is not a religion, but the non-existance of religion.

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Not only Satanists! Do you think Christianity was the firts religion or what?
Because cristian HAVE copied huge amounts of symbols, values, and even religious stories. For example, many accounts of jesus's "miracles" have been proven historically incorect. Even worse, some of them are clearly plagiarised greek and norse (celtic) mithology accounts.

And Christians believe that Satan is evil, just because of what? Because "God" told someone thousands of years ago and that person told someone else, and it was only writen down centuries later, having been deformed through time and translations...

"The proof" you claim comes directly from the bible, so it is not proof, because the proof is only proof to those who believes. someone who spoke to god...just as you criticise those who say they spoke to some deamon...something no one can prove, only beleive.

That is why i am an Atheist. I am also a LaVeyan Satanist. Because Satanism reflects my way of thinking, philosophy and values.

And i do not go on Christian forums to convince them i am right, because i have beter things to do than waste my time on people who forgo reason for fanatism.

Sincerely,
Mr.Atheist

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LOL LaVey was a con, nothing more, he stole other ideas from friedrich Nietzsche philosophies, kinda like what the chrsitians did, stole ideas and concepts from other beliefs and calmed it as their own.so in a way he mocked christianity.

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He didn't necessarily ''steal'' ideas from Nietzsche. There is a thin line where the ideas of someone are one's own and the ideas of someone else are another's.
His work was influenced by Nietzsche, I think he even puts that in the introduction to the Satanic Bible. He took elements of Nietzsche's work in order to build his own philosophy. The ultimate idea he ''took'' was that there is no moral code inherent in the universe. Why this is, he leaves up to the Satanist to determine.

Kain has been removed from the system for his cruelty and intolerance to others.

Must this all be so complicated? All of us have our own opinions on the subject. Some of us have completed our journey, others are half way through, and others, still, have only just begun. We are all of the same religion, just stating our beliefs. Arguing and fighting after it was stated the conversation should end is just plain pointless.

-Forsaken.