Thread: The Church of Satan

Originally Posted by SWM

I see your point. Why would a religion on finding inner peace without a deity be any different from one that worships oneself? Excellent argument.

I think Buddhism is more of a religion than LaVeyen[LaVey'n?] Satanism because of the process of enlightenment (i.e. self gratification vs. enlightenment). Buddhists realize that they can or can't be enlightened more often than not, where base selfishness is a blind towards the rest of the world in Satanism. I'm biased in this retrospect, because I find good will towards my fellow man more approachable than the "**** and Burn" of Satanism.

Self gratification without care or responsibility is not what Satanism is really about. Rational self interest and hedonism is. A Satanist only says "**** and Burn" to those who go out of their way to make the world a worse place to live in for the Satanist. I've found myself in positions before in which by doing something to benefit myself, I appeared to be doing something selfless. I also have no problem with acting selflessly towards those few I love, like my fiancee. The Satanist only rejects the proposition that we should be selfless without good reason, or towards those who seek our destruction.

But as far as criteria for a religion goes, we do have deity worship, in the form of self worship. In recognizing that man is more likely than not to have some god, the Satanist chooses himself, rather than having that choice made for him by chance or the design of others. So by your criteria we are more of a religion than Buddhism ever will be. :P

Interesting. I am enjoying this.

I think you missed my point. I agreed with you for most of your argument. When you brought up the Buddhism comparison, I agreed with you. I believe my quote was:

I see your point. Why would a religion on finding inner peace without a deity be any different from one that worships oneself? Excellent argument.

And as I said before, I am biased. How can I base an opinion off of satanists like you, if I don't know you? All of the Satanists that I know either worship the ideals of Satan, or practice a mixed dogma of anti Christianity with Lucifer as a catalyst.

These websites are also what fuels my scorn on Satanism. (Not the worship itself, but the fact that many Satanists are ignorant, in my opinion. Note that I said many, not most or all.)

http://www.joyofsatan.org/

http://www.satansheaven.com/index.htm

However, I know of one website that issues reason and philosophy rather than hate and ignorance.

http://www.theisticsatanism.com/index.html

As I am not a theistic satanist, and that I do not worship Satan, I still find this website an immeasurable resource. You argue that in appearing selfless, you are actually advancing your own personal endeavors. This is not the same as actually being selfless. This doesn't make you look good when you approach your finance and say,

"No really I mean it this time, that other time was just to make me look good. No really I mean it! I love you."

I'll assume that you do in fact mean what you say, but from an objective and outside perspective, it doesn't lend you any credibility. It only advances what your religion is about.

The only way I can say that you are wrong, is by comparing our moral systems. Since we are grossly different in some ways, I will not do this. It would be an unfair comparison and it would waste both of our time arguing who is right and who is wrong. I think it would be much easier to keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges.

Ah, my apologies. Fair enough. I missed your point.

You argue that in appearing selfless, you are actually advancing your own personal endeavors. This is not the same as actually being selfless.

I never said it was, but the same effect is achieved, and I believe with greater efficiency, since my natural instincts and rational interests are focused in the same direction.

I do find it interesting however that you associate a lack of genuine selflessness with a lack of honesty. I never suggested that I lied about being selfless, in fact I will often (rather grouchely) correct peoples false assumptions in such cases. I of course don't intend to gain credibility with anyone by relating this to you (on the internet such intentions are at best fantastical), merely to pose the possibility that the popular teachings of moral virtue and human behavior might be misleading, if not false.

As to the question of these theistic Satanists, criminal organizations, and others looking to capitalize on the gullibility of people looking for something to believe in, I hold these organization and the people that run them with special contempt. Why should be plainly obvious.

Your right, it is useless to argue with anyone on the internet about moral absolutes. I reject such absolutist dichotomies anyway, so such an argument would quickly become comical, at both our expense. I will leave you with this one point, however. I am at least honest enough to tell you that I am selfish, and that I act in my own interests. I am willing to gamble that you have not and will not see such honesty often.

I will leave you with this one point, however. I am at least honest enough to tell you that I am selfish, and that I act in my own interests. I am willing to gamble that you have not and will not see such honesty often.

A well won gamble indeed! Honesty is a hard thing to come by. I salute you in your steadfast opinions and argumentative skills upholding said opinions.

Friends?

Isn't religion just a word. I was a Buddhist for many moons but never thought of it as a religion just a way of life as Theosophy. Is being selfish in what you believe really selfish. If you look out for yourself is that wrong. In the Black Arts in which I was raised by my Father the idea of caring for others than ones self was moot, but in Satanism I do not see it as a bad thing just a way to merge with the light within. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with this? I had seen atrocities made in the word of the demon and I do not see that with Satanism. I am extremely in awe of the beauty and poetry of this and am just curious as to how it comes together. Thank You.

I would, but I'm afraid I don't know the question you're asking?

I am not really asking a question. I see the beauty and poetry in everything and my point is there is selfishness in everything we do, whether self preservation or practicing magick, just as there is good in everything we do. We would have to be saints to actually think of others and not ourselves all the time. Only a Bodhisattva would be in that league.

Originally Posted by Lady Dunsany

Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with this?

Some people get unsettled by the nasty side of Satanism, which is treating those who would harm you cruelly and without mercy. Some people are disturbed by the suggestion that this is not a moral universe, and that there is no agent, divine or otherwise, meting out justice for their actions. Some people just get hung up on the word Satan. Mostly it is the people who would have nothing going for them if they did not have the good guy image to fall back on.

Originally Posted by SWM

Friends?

Friendly acquaintances. I don't know you well enough to claim you as a friend.