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Thread: Vision Quest/ Magick

  1. #1
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    Default Vision Quest/ Magick

    When I first began magick in early high school I was restricted on physical freedom. I was that typical covert witch in a religious area. I began attempting astral projection and never completely left the body. Yet I did, and have always been able to, go into my "Mind's Eye". In a way it was remote viewing. I explored the upper and lower planes this way. It's almost as if only a part of me left the body. I read so much about astral projection yet people never talk about this 'inbetween' kind. I am curious to others perspective of it.

    On another note, I learned to practice magick while in this 'deep visualization'. I can practice rituals in the physical with no problem, but I find in the 'minds eye/astral' I have access to any concept. Any tool, any herbs, any environment. Years ago I left this way of practicing magick to begin to learn the physical side. Now recently I have begun to go into this 'visualization' again to practice magick. Is it any more or less valid than physically doing it? What is your opinion?

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    As I understand it, anything done on the Astral can effect things on the Physical. This seems to me that you have the perfect practice area without any damaging effect to anything on the physical and without any disruptions. I'm still working on being able to do that consistently.

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    I believe that the "in-between kind" that you are talking about is usually referred to as mental traveling. While I do tend to recognize some sort of continuity between astral projection and mental traveling, I must make a definite distinction between the two. Mental traveling is much more similar to the types of abstraction and dissociation involved in vivid daydreams or, on the other hand, absorbing intellectual contemplation. In fact, I would say that those who have a natural proclivity for such activities will find mental traveling a breeze. The progression into atral projection, however, implicates the full, classified symptology of the hypagogic state, and thus requires a complete relaxation of the body, not merely the dissociation thereof--as is the case in mental traveling. Furthermore, unlike the background duality implicit in mental traveling, one is entirely centered in one's astrosome in relation to external phenomena while astrally projected, as the astrosome provides the same objective fundament--or feeling of a real "other" in relation to one's conscious mental stream--as the physical body, and yet one does perceive in one's astrosome objective cognitive content somehow meaningfully linked to the structural meaning of one's environment. I apologize for the bad writing, but tonight is a Sam Adams night



    "On another note, I learned to practice magick while in this 'deep visualization'. I can practice rituals in the physical with no problem, but I find in the 'minds eye/astral' I have access to any concept. Any tool, any herbs, any environment. Years ago I left this way of practicing magick to begin to learn the physical side. Now recently I have begun to go into this 'visualization' again to practice magick. Is it any more or less valid than physically doing it? What is your opinion?"

    I have actually been thinking about this problem for years now, though perhaps phrased for myself another way. Perchance this is one of those problems that is intimately linked to one's own personal constitution, or it might be more connected to the nature and purpose of the working. In order to propound my opinion more definitely, I need to ask: What kind of workings do you do in this "mind's eye" style? There is pretty hard evidence to suggest that the ancient magoi were aware of the magical uses of active imagination, and yet they nonetheless felt some sort of need to utilize even more exhaustive physical media than we do today. Just going from my experience with both, I would say that the very nature of physical ritual necessitates a greater deal of preparation, focus, and devotion, and is thusly already more energetically charged, as it were. Moreover, it is apparent to me that whenever I do a ritual physically, the effects resonate more deeply into my being, and grab ahold of my entire soul, rather than merely trickling down as in rites implementing solely active imagination.

    In the ancient works, I am inclined to say that I glean an implicit assumption that, almost as if by the same thinking that produces associative connections such as magical correspondences, the very fact that a magical working is operating on every level, increases its influence directly on every level.

    I am not sure if I have hit the nail on the head with all of this; but I will say that I definitely do notice a difference--I can, however, only speculate about the "reasons." Maybe the best way of meeting this question would be to first expound a theoretical position on just how physical magic ritual works.
    Last edited by Phnouthis; 12-11-2009 at 03:06 PM.

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    Default

    Thanks for the replies. I do understand what you are saying. By performing it in the physical, in the mental, and in the spirit. Performing it on all three levels is the strongest. But I do suppose it depends on the ritual.

    I've had quite a few recent positive results from curses done purely in the mental, although I did do some vocalization. One from a few months ago and renewing it recently. The results have been accurate. Another has been altering physical appearance, over time of course, and now a few weeks later I see strong results. Another was making a smaller event occur. Nothing powerful, almost a joke really, and it happened a few hours later.

    The only one I have yet to get results was a love spell, but I only performed it a few nights ago. I'll wait a few moons before I draw a conclusion.

    I suppose lower magick, which is what I am mainly referring to, may be okay to perform in the "mental" alone. Also, strangely enough, when I do it in the 'mental' I am more confident about it. Invocations, evocations, and the like I prefer to do physically on any account. Especially bigger rituals such as sabbats, etc.

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    Default

    By Hekate, you are quite the sorceress!

    Ok, my most consciously significant, introspectively accessible, motivation for participating in these forums is to refine my own theoretical groundings, given the opportunity for collating my own experiences with the, oftentimes very different, results of other magicians (As the Magick within me could best be described as theurgy--believe me, the choice was not altogether my own--I find little (and increasingly less) occasion for direct operations on the physical world; for the "source" of the very desire for worldly control that would motivate such a working is exactly the devil that I have it as my task to subdue). With that said, I must state explicitly that I am certainly no moral universalist, and hence find the more "worldly" magical workings and relevant motivations of others extremely interesting, and essential for expanding my overall understanding of the magical aspects of the cosmos. I am, by temperament, strongly inclined towards empiricism, and hence, when formulating my theoretical interpretations, I favor an almost painstaking description of the phenomena in question. So with this rather verbose introduction I ask you, if you should not consider my request to be overstepping the limits of your personal privacy, Please describe for me these mental workings; if you have any hunches about the mode by which these workings were effective (telepathy, magical sympathy, spirit intercession, etc.) all the better.

    "The only one I have yet to get results was a love spell, but I only performed it a few nights ago. I'll wait a few moons before I draw a conclusion."

    This I find particularly interesting, especially in terms of your motivation and your understanding of "love" within the context of the spell. Again, if it is not too much to ask, I would be most obliged if you could give an even general outline of the spell you employed.

    "I suppose lower magick, which is what I am mainly referring to, may be okay to perform in the "mental" alone. Also, strangely enough, when I do it in the 'mental' I am more confident about it."

    Yeah, it does appear strange to me, as I have felt, to the contrary, more confident satisfaction with using physical media for low magic, as the mental means must be present anyway (I should note that this is especially the case when I am doing a spell intended to act on another person; for here I have found that it just "fits"--as have magicians of all times and climes--to employ magica materia, or some substance from the persons body such as hair, or, at the very least, a photograph or else an object with which that person was in contact). On theoretical grounds however, I tend to think that purely mental magic, when effective, works primarily, if not exclusively, through either telepathic means or, more conservatively, self-suggestion. If indeed it were simply a matter of self-suggestion, it would be difficult for the actual spellcaster to interpret the results objectively, as he or she would be inexorably under the influence of the confirmation bias. I apologize if it comes across that I am pushing some sort of debunking reductionism, but I have known quite enough people who, under the pretense of "The Law of Attraction," have tossed the ashes of their common sense into the wind, and have subsequently dug deep pits for themselves.
    Last edited by Phnouthis; 12-11-2009 at 06:30 PM.

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    Pretty much, to keep it simple, I lay down, typically before I go to sleep, and relax into a trance state, as if I would to project. Once I have 'emptied my mind' I began to visualize an 'astral temple' if you will. Typically I visualize the woods, a bonfire, I may be nude or downright feral if it calls for it. Then, just as in the physical, I call upon what currents I may use, I state my intent, then I flow with it. I may begin dancing or howling or whatever.

    If it's a curse I'll visualize something sympathetic, a doll or necklace, a black candle, etc. For the love I threw rose petals into the air and into the fire. Also, obviously, I go into to what I want to happen. To be simple, anything I would do in a physical ritual, I do in the mental. Invocations/evocations do work in this state but I prefer the physical, probably out of habit.

    The way I see it. Magick is based on Will/Desire/Belief as Spare put it. If our Subconscious desires it, our Conscious is disciplined, we have full confidence/belief, we 'fire it off', and then go about our business. Over time it will manifest by what means it can and specifically what you said, be it good or bad. As long as these bare bones essentials are met, a person can do it in whatever method works. This is a chaos magician, or "old school witch" way of looking at it. Ceremony is just a formal structure, not a necessity.

    I agree with the Theurgy, or "Higher Magick". I focused on this quite awhile before I began practicing lower magick. Personally there must be balance. Evolving our Consciousness is great, but things like love, sex, career, etc. assist in this. As long as the lower magick is aligned with True Will. By True Will I mean the "right course" for you. For example, we kiss many frogs in relationships before we find our "true love". I say, we set sail on many crappy winds in life till we find that "right current" to take us to fulfillment. So lower magick for winning the lotto isn't exactly assisting fulfillment.

    Also, I've learned with lower magick, it's okay to have fun with it, lol.

    I'm not "great sorceress". I am a High Priestess of Hekate, but I'm a 22 year old girl just like any other. lol.

  7. #7
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    Okay, I misunderstood what you meant by operating magic mentally; I took you to mean something more like focused intent, not visualized ritual. I really cannot say much from experience about the efficacy of visualized ritual.

    Speaking from my own case, I would have to say that theurgy has so considerably changed me that the concepts derived from external, prima facie descriptions of phenomena such as "love, sex, career," etc., no longer carry the same connotations or expectations that they formerly did--and commonly do. Perhaps I'm just getting old, I will be leaving my 20s in February (by the way, you shouldn't have told me your age, from now on, no matter how hard I might try to fight it, this fact will find its way into my evaluation of myself in relation to your posts), but the meanings behind, let's say, "career"--I mean, the range of meanings that place value, or orient purpose and, consequentially, behavior, not the purely "objective" content of the word ("sex" is easier here: I don't mean the basic descriptive--anatomical, physiological--facts of, in this case, sex, but the range of meanings of the word "sex" that are directly related to one's personhood)--are no longer compatible with my internal, motivational meaning set; they seem to be constructed from and for a collective personality with which I cannot identify. Hence I cannot pursue a career, but rather I can assist in actualizing deeply set existential drives that just might incidentally materialize in this or that career (For instance, when I was younger, I ambitiously strove to establish myself in an academic career, and, additionally, I put in the extra effort to acquaint myself with areas of inquiry that would give me, what I perceived was, a creative advantage over my would-be colleagues. Nevertheless, as time progressed, I abruptly grew bored with purely intellectual challenges, and now, after a few years of soul-searching, meaninglessness, and, generally speaking, severe depression, I'm in the application process for becoming an Army officer. But when I project myself into this future path in order to represent for myself my motivations, I am keenly attentive to the internal, psychic benefits wrought by the external conditions, but only dimly aware of the external conditions themselves. This is very different from my youthful self who represented his desired future scenarios in--albeit, glorified--images.). It is, then, very difficult for me to do "low magic" now, as I cannot help but to believe that external circumstances (such as falling in love, or finding a career), coalesce around the expression of such higher-order, internal meanings, and thus, that the magical modification of external circumstances cannot be an end in itself for me--my focus cannot easily be actionably displaced from the sphere of internal development; for some reason I have this sense that the external world, at some level, cooperates with me on this, and only on this, "transcendental" plane of motivation.

    I find this notion of a True Will to be very curious, as I have never read a consistent statement of the facts of which the definition of this concept is supposed to serve as an interpretation. I do think, however, that there is something to the idea, I am just not entirely sure what that might be; and further, I am hesistant to extend the full rage of theoretical baggage implied in and adduced on behalf of this concept of a "True Will"--or perhaps I just have a difficult time separating the concept from Thelema; I think that my assessment of the same set of facts conceptualized by the term "True Will" would give birth to a different term.



    Love spells are of great interest to me, as I have found romantic relationships to be the most challenging type of magical working. I'm not, however, exactly sure of my stance on love at this point--I mean, it's essentially the same as it always was (for Love itself surely does not belong to me), but, except for some remaining excrescences of cynicism, it now feels purer, liberated from the dark clusters of associations that once obscured the clarity of my perception of this great power. Did you endeavor to enchant a particular person, or did you cast for love in general? Anyway, good luck to you

    Hekate holds my affection as well. Have you ever read the Chaldean Oracles?
    "If you, Hegias, are saying that theurgy is divine then I agree with you. But those destined to be gods must first become human; that is why Plato said that philosophy is the greatest gift ever to have come down from the Gods to humanity."

    --Isidore of Gaza, recorded by Damascius the Diadochus in his Philosophical History.

  8. #8
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    Sara D Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belasko View Post
    The word Vision Quest and Fire Walks make me cringe big time. I have a hard time with any labels, and as long as I have practiced magick, let us call it what it is going within, and vision quest reminds me of a Disney movie. Please excuse my cynicism but all this beating around the bush, and big words do not an occultist make.
    Yes please cut out the gibberish and speak English. I understand where you are coming from Sir.

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    Belphebe Guest

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    You know how to spot a phony a mile away, don't you Belasko?

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    Actually if you would have read the full thread you would know what it's exactly about instead of making pretentious calls. Quite frankly I just threw the term out there loosely because I wasn't exactly sure what to call it. That's about how much I care about "terms that make an occultist".

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