Thread: Of fate and Responsability

Wasn't sure where to put this...anyhoo..

Now their in lies a bit of a conundrum...that of responsibility for our actions, and the myriad contradicting beliefs we cogitate up to alleviate ourselves of this sometimes weighty burden.

Now, I know that the standard occultish answer is "we are all 100% responsible for our actions...blah blah fishpaste"...but give pause here and really think about it.

Are we?

I myself have no fixed view of the matter...but we all know people that are "victims of circumstance"...how do we judge them and say..."well this happened because you did such and such"? Sometimes those circumstances arose due to the actions of others that the person in question had no control over?

What do we say then?

Lets take Religion...Faith...The Gods...Astrology, are they not merely clever tricks of the mind to shift some of this burden off?

I myself am guilty of this...I often comment I was born in the year of the Goat and am Aries...you got a f*#k'n problem with that?

This phenomenon can manifest itself in very odd ways...I have lived among people of the Muslim faith...now this isn't a Muslim bashing thing...(really its not)...but I have often seen Arabs driving recklessly and without seatbelts with their children standing between the drivers seats. I asked my friend, (who is both Arab and Muslim), how they can allow that, what if something happens? He says "Insh'alla"..which translates to "In Gods hands". They honestly don't see the point in driving safely as whatever happens is entirely in Gods hands.

I pointed out that God wasn't driving the car, and got lectured on questioning the will of God. True story.

Today the ex-president of South Korea took a swan dive off a mountain near his home because he was under investigation for corruption...

Don't be too sad. Isn't life and death all part of nature? Don't be sorry. Don't blame anybody. It's fate. Please leave a small tombstone near home. I've long thought about that.

That was note he left...was it fate? ...where do we draw the line between choice and fate..and where do we point the finger when we come undone?

Your questions are vague.

Lets take Religion...Faith...The Gods...Astrology, are they not merely clever tricks of the mind to shift some of this burden off?

Clever? We don't need a working definition of intelligence to describe psychological defense mechanisms. Faith in any RHP religion can be argued as just as rational, by this metric, as any.

I myself am guilty of this...I often comment I was born in the year of the Goat and am Aries...you got a f*#k'n problem with that?

If you were to use those as a scapegoat... yes. The burden of responsibility being hard to swallow doesn't mean swallowing it shouldn't be attempted.

Because of this, I would probably make an excellent lady of the night, shame about my gender. :P

That was note he left...was it fate? ...where do we draw the line between choice and fate..and where do we point the finger when we come undone?

There's a psychological term, "hyperactive agency detection." It's, for once, exactly as it says on the tin. People looking for agents (people which do things) as causes for actions.

You give someone an easy way out, one which fits in with their schema, they are likely to take it.

For example, that time I cheated on my girlfriend is ok because of the gratuitous amount of sambuka I drank that night.

...your understanding of these concepts seem vague...not my questions

To witt:

Clever? We don't need a working definition of intelligence to describe psychological defense mechanisms. Faith in any RHP religion can be argued as just as rational, by this metric, as any.

You've sort of missed the point here. It goes more about any structured belief giving rise to self deception which would be required to allow the believer to say..."wasn't me"...you need to trick your mind, which BTW is what the term "clever" was referring to, if I wanted to say logical or coherent...I would have used the words logical and coherent.

Now, Lets take your answer as an example of self deception...you seem to agree that structured beliefs are a "psychological defense mechanism" and then, (if I understand you correctly...), infer that RHP beliefs are not "clever". By this I may logically infer that you follow the LHP. Now right there is a trick of the mind...do you think that because you follow the LHP you are somehow immune from self deception? That you are not as susceptible to same wooly headed thinking?....Hmmm, I wonder.

If you were to use those as a scapegoat... yes. The burden of responsibility being hard to swallow doesn't mean swallowing it shouldn't be attempted.

Thanks for the fortune cookie nugget of wisdom there...please note that the comment about being Aries and born in the year of the Goat is in fact a joke...(hence the unnecessary use of aggression and the little blue face man thingy that is winking at you... ...this is a sad face man, to indicate I'm sad you didn't get my joke). However the point I wish to illustrate is that there are ALWAYS other influences that effect our behavior...the fact that you may not like or have any pre-determined opinion about, (as a forinstance), Jehovahs Witnesses will effect how you interact with them. This may have ramifications that you will never be aware of.

There's a psychological term, "hyperactive agency detection." It's, for once, exactly as it says on the tin. People looking for agents (people which do things) as causes for actions.

You give someone an easy way out, one which fits in with their schema, they are likely to take it.

For example, that time I cheated on my girlfriend is ok because of the gratuitous amount of sambuka I drank that night.

Ok...giving the phenomenon to which I'm referring a fancy psychological name doesn't really help us understand the nature of the beast now then does it? We know its a psychological fact of life...and all people are prone falling into into it.

There is always a random chaotic element in life,(fate?)...then there is an action/re-action element in life, (choice?)

To come back to my original, (and somewhat straightforward, un-vague), question, where...or how, do we draw the line between choice and fate?

I understand your point, S33k3R. For example, let us examine the state of minorities in the United States. A majority live in slums. They enroll into gangs to sell drugs, steal items, and commit murder... all because it makes quick money (when successful). They live like this largely due to institutionalized racism, where the federal government implements laws that allow minorities reduced higher education fees, laws such as Affirmative Action, and institutions like the ACLU that will harass white people for making racially offensive statements, but will turn a blind eye when black people call each other the N-word or racially insult Caucasian people. Racial harmony was never achieved in the United States, either because the federal government is racist or simply lazy. Therefore, say you were born into a poor minority community, you would most likely go along with what everyone else is doing in your town. Still, you do have the free will to break away from groupthink and take advantage of your reduced-cost higher education.

I answered your question, S33ker.

People draw the line between fate and choice under a few circumstances.

- They need to shift responsibility from themselves, hence "scapegote"... and "scapegoat." from the first post. That was a pun, sir.

-They feel humbled by the magnitude of an event.

-Or they seek to glorify said event.

If you want a metaphysical treatment of fate, we'd probably be talking at eachother, until someone's proved that there is a fate (IE provided a convincing argument for why hard determinism's true), I'm not going to worry about any metaphysical backlash regarding it.

Now, Lets take your answer as an example of self deception...you seem to agree that structured beliefs are a "psychological defense mechanism" and then, (if I understand you correctly...), infer that RHP beliefs are not "clever". By this I may logically infer that you follow the LHP. Now right there is a trick of the mind...do you think that because you follow the LHP you are somehow immune from self deception? That you are not as susceptible to same wooly headed thinking?....Hmmm, I wonder

You seem unduly hostile, and your reasoning's incorrect. I do not follow any LHP or RHP religion, and I similarly brand those that follow some self deceiving faith outside of it to brand themselves free from self deception, apparently, deluded and, you guessed it. Self deceiving.

Only a fool would think they're beyond self deception.

Ok...giving the phenomenon to which I'm referring a fancy psychological name doesn't really help us understand the nature of the beast now then does it? We know its a psychological fact of life...and all people are prone falling into into it.

It does when you understand what hyperactive agency detection means. In lieu of this, and because I could've made my point clearer:

When you ask a kid "What are birds for?" what are they going to say? They're hardly going to go in some big rant about objective purposelessness, they'll say "to sing" or "to fly" or "to sit on wires." Birds aren't for any of these things, this "hyperactive" reasoning to define purpose into them is part of "hyperactive agency detection", you could say it's "creating things that aren't there because it fits in better with my worldview or is convenient for me"

There is always a random chaotic element in life,(fate?)...then there is an action/re-action element in life, (choice?)

The former seems true, but action reaction might not apply in any intuitive way to abstract concepts. But when you're dealing with F = ma and all that the reaction's deterministic.

Apologies for the late reply S33ker, I've been doing other things.